What I don't like about the Prius Prime

Well with lower gaso prices, the benefit of a Plug-In gets more into the fun-to-drive power and pep quality of electric drive. So Prime does that. PiP gives you cargo space and let's say cost savings over gaso when gaso is high priced. But that PiP argument is getting weaker, might as well get a regular Prius. Prime gives the better electric drive experience.

 

Also the styling of Prime is distinctive and appealing.

 

What kind of load of garbage is that? Volt doesn't stand any chance of competing against traditional vehicles without tax-credit help. Profitability from a vehicle offering a battery-pack that size just plain isn't realistic. Volt is smaller on the inside and doesn't get as gas depleted efficiency either.

Prime's configuration will allow consumers even with a long commute to take full advantage of the power & capacity its battery-pack will offer. And for out on the open road, depleted efficiency will be outstanding.

8.8 kWh pack will cost much less than the 18.4 with liquid-cooling. The Prime hybrid system will benefit from a number of components shared with Prius. It's a formula with business sustainability in mind.

You can spin "disappointing" all you want. Consumers shopping the showroom aren't going to bite. In fact, they won't even know about the claims of much greater capacity expectations even existed. Some of us hoped all along Toyota would stay true to principle, not sacrificing affordability for the sake of catering to a want.

Toyota's fulfillment of need has been a principle approach for decades. We've seen that with Camry, Corolla, and Prius. Why should Prime be any different?

 

Having been a supporter of Prius prior to the United States rollout, back when original model evaluations from survey families and media reviewers was all that we had available (that's 1999 for those unfamiliar with the history), I had very different expectations. I studied the market in great detail and actively interacted with the influencing factors as it progressed.

This will be the 6th major upgrade to the platform, with respect to the battery. It started with the D-cell batteries (gen-0). Then came along the prismatic packaging upgrade (gen-1). A much improved cell & pack arrangement (gen-2). Toyota then figured out how to do even more with less, by reducing voltage and introducing a booster (gen-3). Following that was switching to lithium (gen-4). Then, capacity was increased and a plug added (gen-5). With this rollout in the fall (gen-6), capacity will be increased even more, allowing much more power to be delivered for propulsion. Each upgrade always strived to keep cost down. It was a top priority.

I never had an expectation of the dramatic increase in EV range others had recently hoped for. The history simply didn't support such a change in approach. Cost would be prohibitive.

Does a parent expect a child who as always put a great deal of emphasis on being financially responsible to abandon those principles at some point? Even when they grow up, look much different, and perhaps not be as practical as in the past, there isn't a belief that change will alter purpose. That may "hurt" to see the change, but the ultimate goal remains the same.

Prime is designed to attract mainstream buyers. It's not a Prius with a larger battery-pack and plug like PHV was. It's that child venturing out on their own after having completed his or her education. Some old friends will remain. Some new friends will be made. The next step is being taken away from "home".

Love hurts, eh?

 

but i don't work for toyota, i'm just a lowly customer.

unfortunately, we'll never know how a 22 mile pip would have sold in all 50 states.

 

The audience that wants a Volt?
The apparent space and seat compromises, and talk of being a more upscale Prius, has my believing Toyota is chasing the customers of the gen 1 Volt.

	measurement	Prius	Volt
1	front head room	39.4	37.8
2	front shoulder room	55	56.5
3	front hip room	53.4	53.7
4	front leg room	42.3	42.1
5	rear head room	37.4	35.8
6	rear shoulder room	53	53.2
7	rear hip room	51.9	51.3
8	rear leg room	33.4	34.7

The Volt isn't that much smaller on the inside. Cargo space is where the big difference lies. Going by what was shown of the Prime, the gap with the Volt will be much closer there, though. Which will highlight how much this Prime looks like a half assed PHEV, but then the Sonata hybrid manages to get a full 60/40 folding rear seat compared to the Camry hybrid's pass through. For completely losing the fifth seat, the Prime gives better headroom than the Volt. Not much of a selling point for some, and they all can see the lost cargo space to the Prius in the showroom.

GM has basically dropped the Volt's MSRP between the generations by the amount of the federal tax credit, and did so while improving the major points of the car; improved gas efficiency, improved electric efficiency, improved EV range, slight improvement to performance, and they got a half seat into the rear for a kid.

The CS fuel efficiency isn't near the Prius. Guess what, few hybrids are near the level of the Prius. The Volt's MPG is on par with the midsize sedan hybrids, and is much better than the ICE models it has replaced for people. Then the longer EV range will likely result in less gasoline used over a year.

Did GM use magic to increase the battery capacity by over a 1kWh while reducing its cost? Is there reason to believe that Li-ion batteries have reached their lowest cost point at this time? The Prime should have a cost advantage with its battery and cooling system, but that doesn't mean we will see it in the price.

I've said that the Prime shown could be the worst case for packaging and interior lay out, but even if improved in the production model, that won't matter if Toyota gets the price wrong.[/table]

 

Who are you talking about.... consumers or business?

When are you talking about... while the tax-credit are still available or afterward?

The lack of clarity is what contributed to the "crap" assessment coming about. Think about the quantity of misleading posts and heated debates that came about because some random poster didn't provide enough context. But then again, doing that intentionally was a common technique for undermining discussions... especially when an undisputable point is eventually uncovered.

This is also an issue of audience. Ordinary consumers are looking for a full assed vehicle either. Seriously, when addressing the mainstream, perfection isn't a requirement. That's what luxury vehicles are for.

 

resistance is futile. i'm now expecting base prime to start at 24k.

 

I've got the 4th gen thing more-or-less under control, not that hard. My wife, not so much: we made the mistake of checking out the silver touring demo. Actually she's coming around too. Yeah we're good.

 

when momma's happy, everybody is happy.

 

Keep dreaming.

See, that's the thing - I don't think this "new audience" exists. If they're truly new, that means that they are not Prius loyalists, and I cannot imagine anyone else even considering the Prime. Assuming comparable price and equipment level (and the Prime might not even achieve that), there seems to be very little reason to prefer the Prime over the Gen2 Volt. I think the Prime's main advantage is that its rear seat looks likely to seat two adults more comfortably than the Volt's. That's pretty thin stuff, and in the aggregate worth very near $0 in perceived value.

Through cynical choice or simple ineptitude, the Prime has wound up being a car that appeals to a niche of a niche of the market. Those holding out for a major positive surprise on pricing are being unrealistic, given Gen4 LB pricing and numerous $$$+ aspects of the Prime package (battery, rear glass, custom front and rear treatments, etc.). More important, the Prime's "value" was clearly the furthest thing from Toyota's mind. If you listened carefully to the launch event comments, it seems the Prime is a Prius intended for well-heeled Toyota hybrid fans who want to set themselves apart from both the rabble in the C, v, and LB on the one hand, and the fogeys driving Avalon Hybrids on the other hand.

I can see how marketers might have talked themselves into this, but can anyone really think all that's going to translate into a big win in the marketplace? The only way I could see Toyota salvaging this is with a second "economy plug-in" package as an add-on for high-trim and/or Eco LBs, with more limited AER, lower $$$, and a smaller battery pack that fits entirely under the "high floor" trunk of the non-Eco Two and Three (no spare, of course [sigh]), effectively resurrecting the tradeoffs of the original PiP. Not sure how likely that is, but I'm not holding my breath.

Volt doesn't compete against traditional ICE vehicles at all, which is rather the point. It's more EV than PHEV, not for arcane technical "shape of the tech" reasons, but practical ones. With a fully usable 50mi+ AER (fully usable because exhausting it means spinning up the ICE, not calling for a tow), most Volts operate almost exclusively as BEVs. That's very attractive to EV enthusiasts who can't afford to reserve a car in the home fleet for "local EV-range only" service, but for whom that AER is more than enough to deal with their regular routine. Limited ICE use also means that MPG in hybrid mode is less important, though Volt has improved on that score to match or better other non-Prius hybrids. Much as you might love the Prius and/or Prime, or the philosophy behind the design, that shouldn't obscure the facts of the case. We'll all know more once the price is finally published - and even more after the buying public gets to weigh in.

 

That would be.....impressive, starting at the same price as the non-plug Prius.

The hybrid to PHEV price for Ford and Hyundai current models is in the $6000 to $8000 range more for the PHEV at a quick glance. These are, technically, first gen plug ins from the manufacturer, so the gap should be narrower in a second gen model..

 

well, they're two different cars after all, aren't they? you folks are looking at it from a biased perspective. some people will want a prius in one configuration or another, and some will want a prime.
you can't assume that everyone is going to think, 'wow, i can get a plug in for the same price as a non plug in', and buy a prime.
some people will need 5 seats and a full hatch.

p.s., there's no such thing as a 'big win' in the alt fuel market place right now.

 

Bisco, are you talking about $24k MSRP or after fed and state credits/rebates?

$24k seems very plausible for the base Prius Prime after government incentives and based on the closing PHEV:hybrid delta Trollbait mentioned. In California, where the plurality of PHEVs are sold, the Prime will get $6k from the feds and state.

Still, Toyota probably feels a lot of pressure not to price the Prime too low and undercut sales of the Liftback line. The victims of their own Liftback success in a way, and not able to differentiate the Prime as an entirely different vehicle.

 

A pre federal tax credit price of $28k or so would a reasonable guess for the base Prime. I see Toyota going higher. California is a big market, and the Prime should also get a rebate there, plus possible HOV access.

 

the fact is, the pip was about $3500. more than a comparably equipped lift back (which there was not an exact match) in 2012 after only a $2500. federal credit. so it will be fairly easy for toyota to match a pkg 2 lift back before tax credits.

 

Hope you are right and hope Toyota prices it that way.

Maybe I'm missing something here. The Prius 2 (most affordable trim lift back) MSRP is currently $24,200. Are you saying you think Toyota could offer the base Prime for this as MSRP? It certainly has one of the smaller batteries by PHEV standards, but this and other components will add cost to the vehicle.

How do you figure such a great price? If that is true, in California, one could get a base Prime for ~$18,000 after government incentives.

FWIW, the base PiP MSRP in its last year offered was $30k. The Volt MSRP dropped ~$1k between generations.

Let’s say Toyota drops the price on the base Prime in a similar fashion to $29k before manufacturer incentives. Then we have $23k after government incentives in California.

Toyota will probably sweeten the deals with their own incentives after some months go by.

 

On introduction, the gen1 Volt started over $39k. The gen2 starts at just over $34k with delivery.
There were rebates and price cuts during the gen1's production run, and some of them were due to improvements in battery cost, but part of it could be because GM was willing to take a loss to move the cars off the lot. We simply don't know how the balance sheets worked out in that regard. Then cost improvements due to things like the new motors and transaxle wouldn't be seen until the gen2.

If we were talking a brand new PiP, I'd agree with you, but the Prime traction battery is twice the size of the PiP's. Toyota's costs for it would have to have dropped 50% since the PiP first went on sale in order for the larger pack size to not increase the price of the car. I think that is possible, but don't a see a cost reduction great enough to allow them to go lower than the PiP's price. The high end Prius talk could all be a tactic like the high end Chevy for the first Volt; to make a higher price more palatable.

The larger battery means larger incentives, so the Prime can be lower than for some once those are factored in than the PiP, but I don't see the Prime's MSRP starting much lower than the PiP's did. The traction battery is a big cost for plug ins. GM managed price cuts for the gen2 Volt, but they only added 2ish kWh to the pack; about a 12% increase over the first gens pack. The Prime has a 100% increase over the PiP's.

 

we have to get beyond incentive talk, and build lower cost plug ins that can compete in the real world. you know, outside caliphonya.

by eliminating the fifth seat, and putting the battery in the hatch, they have substantially reduced the cost of packaging. pip was expensive because they had to stuff everything into an existing platform, and, justify price over lift back.

let me re emphasize, prime is not a lift back competitor in any way shape or form to noobies walking into a toyota showroom.