Featured As gas prices have dropped, so have owner's EV/hybrid loyalty

Exactly what is tough to understand. The main arguments against PHEVs have historically been the price. Now we're seeing even at the same/similar price, the take rate is low.

I did just a little price comparison with local 2013 models.

Prius - 15k range (did not look at PiP because its not available here)
Corolla - 13k range
Volt - 13k-15k range
Cruze - 13k range for LT2 and LTZ models which are more comparable.

So the Volt has to be cheaper than a Cruze for people to take a chance on it? How much cheaper? Incredible to me, as it has been the best car I've ever owned. I think it's fair to say that the Leaf battery degradation has negatively affected the market for EVs as much or more than gas prices.

 

You seem to be making the assumption that the Volt isn't selling at those prices. Does somebody collect the data for used car sales rates?

For a new Cruze, the LT automatic and Premier are $22k to $24k.
For someone that can claim the entire federal tax credit, a new Volt will be $25.5k; even less in California and other states with generous incentives.
With incentives affecting new car prices, depreciation should likely be factored from the after incentive price. So a used Volt costing as much as a used Cruze shouldn't be a surprise.

Battery age is something many would consider, I wouldn't worry about a 3 year old car, but plug ins are still new in the public consciousness. Then the ability to charge may be a factor. Those buying use might be less likely to live in a home where home charging is available. Of course gas prices will be a factor. I think much of the public view plug ins like hybrids, just seeing the potential to save money. Headlines about it costing more to travel on electricity than gasoline in some areas, aren't going to help sales for new and used.

Honda's hybrid battery woes doesn't seem to have affected Toyota hybrid sales. So, I'm not sure the Leaf issue taints the plug in market in general, but I don't really know my friends that don't follow these cars perceptions of hybrids or plug ins. Except one would like to put a deposit down on a Model 3.

 

i'm not sure new to the plug in market buyers would even know about the leaf issues.

 

it's interesting to see how the US society has decided owning Prius or similar hybrid or plugin is seriously not cool, while Tesla is very cool. is this genius in advertising or what?

 

Had Toyota pushed the hybrid technology with the LS first, it might've worked better. (However, it might've also been seen as greenwashing, as the LS 600h does not exactly have great fuel economy, whereas the Model S can be greener than a Prius depending on grid source.)

 

I don't see it that way. The phone with zero memory has a significant cost. When you see the incremental cost of memory and compare it to the cost of, say, a microSD card you will usually find that the upgrade cost is 3x to 10x of this cost per GB. For example the current amazonprice for a Samsung 64GB microSD class 10 right now is ~$20 and I've seen them for as low as ~$14.

Mike

 

It's not advertising. The Tesla is designed to be an expensive, excessive vehicle, while the Prius is sensible transportation. If the Prius could keep up with a Corvette, it would advertise itself: Watch a Tesla Model S drag-race a 2014 Corvette Stingray | Autoweek

 

No, it isn't advertising. Heck, Tesla does no advertising.

The reason Tesla, and other EVs will continue to grow market share while hybrids remain stagnant is hybrids are a one trick pony.
The only unique advantage they have is fuel efficiency.

EVs have NO gasoline need meaning trips to the gas pump are completely eliminated.
Convenient at home fueling for those with a charger at home (this may be limitedy to about 50% of the automobile purchasing market).
Emit less local pollution.
A very high quality drive.
Phenomenal performance, especially on city streets, at their price point.

The gen4 may be working on some of the handling aspects, but I'm afraid they are simply taking sales away from other hybrids, not conventional ICE cars.

 

OP posts "as gas prices have dropped ..... " as though that's the end of ever upward moving costs .... it seems Australians are seeing the return of the gasoling upward price movement;
Australia gasoline prices, 16-May-2016 | GlobalPetrolPrices.com
I can hear people now;
"crykie !! and we just dumped the hybrid for this land barge ?!? .... what were we thinking !!"
You gotta love short sighted people. Some will pull a building permit on the shore line, right after the tidal wave recedes. I foresee some really great truck bargains in the not too distant future, for those who really need 'em.
.

 

Your dismissal of hybrids in favor of EV never ceases to fascinate. You simply refuse to acknowledge change.

Toyota just rolled out a much-improved Prius and will be rolling out a new plug-in model later this year. That alone is a wake-up to the market. They just entered the small SUV hybrid market too. What about that?

Then there's the fact that VW diesel owners thrive on efficiency (and supposedly being clean) who will looking for replacement vehicles.

We have new players joining in too. Hyundai, Chrysler, Mitsubishi all offering new hybrid market choices.

There is also the economic factor of EV providing an endorsement effect for hybrids. Those who still believed rechargeable batteries weren't good enough for automotive use will finally see they are.

In other words, stop being so anti-hybrid. You're not doing any good by disregarding so much recent change.

 

it's tough for me to see the 'small' rav4 hybrid as change, as the Ford Escape was hybridized what - a decade ago ? Toyota finally expanded their hybrid system . . . that long overdue strategy was to me, as inexplicable as ford taking hybrids out of the Escape.
.

 

Much as it pains me to agree, it is true in North America:

1. No TSS-P for the 2016 Level 2 ECO (What were they thinking!)
2. No 1.5kW AC inverter for any Gen-4 Prius
3. No tow option for any Gen-4 Prius
4. No rear wheel drive option for any Gen-4 Prius
5. Level 3 MPG does not compete with Level 2 ECO
6. No change in 0-60 mph time with evidence they 'left it on the drawing board'
7. No 'van' version even though Estima has been in Japan for over 10 years! (NOTE: Prius v is just a wagon version, not a van.)

Personally, I think they are tone-deaf to at least this customer.
. . .

I agree the RAV-4 hybrid fills an important and missing piece BUT it is not a 'van'. A van has at least one sliding door for open access from the side. Simply amazing since Toyota has had an Estima van with rear-wheel drive and 1.5kW inverter for at least a decade.

Bob Wilson

 

I would also argue that the Noah/Voxy/Esquire would make an excellent basis for an urban delivery van, which is a rapidly growing segment now.

In their current form, they're only in passenger trims (the Lite-Ace being the one intended for cargo duty in that class, IIRC), but the Noah/Voxy/Esquire triplets are a form factor that's more suited to US crash standards. And, they're about the same size as a Nissan NV200/Chevy City Express, so they could absolutely work in the cargo market (although the Transit Connect and ProMaster City do better, AFAIK).

Then, those triplets have a hybrid option, that puts the battery underneath the front seats, so it doesn't impinge on cargo space. And, power is IIRC roughly comparable to the NV200/City Express as well.

 

Toyota luxury brand was the first to hibridize. RX400h was launched in 2004.

 

You position would be much stronger if you didn't rely on logical fallacies.
I do not completely dismiss hybrids.

IMO, hybrids are the best ICE vehicles around.

Toyota, and other companies could do more to atract customers to them. Bob's list is a great list of things that would give them greater appeal.
As for refusing to acknowledge change, that is a very interesting charge from the person who lambasted GM for making a 4 seater, yet applauds it when Toyota does it.

I am willing to try more efficient solutions, and to spend my own time sharing what I learned from driving vehicles that represent change with the public at large. Even if it isn't a Toyota.

As our MNPEVOC groups motto says, "I Drive Change".

My dismissal of the growth potential of hybrids is founded on what we have already seen.
That hybrid market share plateaus between 3-4% market share.
The gen4 Prius and hybrid RAV4 may help with that, although it may just cannibalize sales of other hybrids.

The only thing I expect to see move that 3% closer to 5% is gas prices. Meanwhile, EVs have other attributes that will propel them well past hybrids, regardless of gas prices.

 

Well, he has owned a BMW, and always have wanted one, but he did keep that 3 series for over a decade as a daily driver. He had an Accord before that. Having just bought a new house in New Jersey, is likely what kept him from putting a deposit down, and NJ's low gas prices likely defuses any interest my friends had in a Prius. Though one's ex wife drive your parents' gen2 for a week, and simply didn't like it.

So was the Escape hybrid, and it beat the RX to market.

 

Another thing you are refusing to acknowledge is the fact that Volt's audience has changed.

It was originally marketed as a mainstream vehicle, something for families of all types. As the years progressed, the market changed. It became a specialty vehicle, targeting a more narrow audience... one that 4 seats is fine for... which is why my "lambasting" ended.

Toyota is targeting that 4-seat audience with Prime right from the start. It's a vehicle different from Prius, not just a plug-in model as PHV was. Heck, Toyota even stated it was for the grown up family, who's children are not older. Those children will be driving sometimes, no longer in a carseat or bringing along a friend to squeeze in back. That comfort and the extra tech-features are not what you'll find in a regular Prius.

Again, I tired of getting labeled as hypocritical by omitting detail which shows that's not actually the case.

Things change. Look at how different the audience is no compared to back when the gen-1 vehicles were first rolled out. Get over it!

 

You know tesla has never spent a penny on advertising the cars, and toyota has spent a great deal advertising the prius.

The cool of tesla comes from the design and engineering. The uncool of the prius is partially from the really bad toyota advertising campaigns, but has a lot to do with engineering and promotion as an appliance instead of a fun to drive car. P

Tesla sells inspite of no advertising. Prius sells inpite of its poor advertising.

 

i wish it were true but (as a current owner of one of the very 1st RX400h's delivered - late 2005 - it's a 2006 model year), Toyota was the follower . . . . .

Ford Escape - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
that is, unless it's important to claim Toyota/Lexus was the 1st to introduce the system into a more expensive model .... rather than one that most could afford ... not to pick nit's or anything ...
.

 

Well, (in Europe) i've never seen a Ford Escape hybrid. Perhaps mass production was first explored by Lexus, its hybrid suvs ruled for years (here). My bad.