What I don't like about the Prius Prime

it certainly negates the volt vs prime argument. i don't know how effective it was in sales, but it's one less talking point. now we can argue who has the most comfortable back seat, leg and head room.

 

While my bet is on the Prime having the more comfortable rear seating area, it won't be a major differential that will sway a Prime v. Volt sale. Neither will have the space of a Camry, or maybe even a Corolla in that area. The rear seat of either will likely be mostly used by kids, or occasionally by adults on short trips. The hypothetical lunch run. Until they hit high school, kids simply don't need as much space, and any discomfort for adults will be short lived. In either case, a fifth seat is more important for appealing to buyers.

These points were why the gen1 Volt was criticized for only 4 seats.

Before the PiP had the uncompromised passenger passenger and cargo utility as selling points over the Volt, with the better fuel economy to offset the shorter EV range.

The Prime still got the great MPG, and will have fancier stuff, but the utility difference is mostly gone for an EV range quivalent to Ford's, middle aged, PHEVs. The Volt's MPG still lacks behind the Prius, but it is good, and improved. So is the passenger utility and EV range. It may not be as well appointed as the first Volt in the base trim, but the MSRP has dropped from $40k to $34k. Which is the bad part for the Prime.

The big argument against the first Volt was the cost. GM has greatly reduced it for the second gen while improving nearly every aspect of the car. Toyota plans to keep the Prime price starting at where the PiP did. Which is a little better than the C-Max Energi, a PHEV with about the same range and cargo space as the Prime, and 5 full seats, that is a 3 year old model.

So the Volt has greatly closed the price gap with the Toyota's Prius PHEV, and it wouldn't be unreasonable to think Ford's next PHEV will also improve the price and/or other aspects of the car, making it more attractive than the Prime.

 

It's worth noting that the Prime likely won't be the heaviest NGA-C vehicle, the next Lexus NX would be.

However, that doesn't mean that the Prius unibody was designed for Lexus NX loads, and I doubt that TNGA even includes the floorpan, it seems to be more about component sets for a class of vehicle rather than unique components for variants of a platform. and manufacturing processes that allow very quick changes between models on the line.

I could believe that the added weight of the battery is stressing something such that in a crash, the Prime may not be able to protect the rear seat occupants as well if there were three adults. However, I can't believe that it would need 250 pounds more, to handle a third (usually lighter due to the lack of comfort of middle seats) occupant.

 

That's kinda what's stuck in my craw. I've acknowledged that two adults may well be more comfortable in the Prime's back seat than the Gen2 Volt's (I've ridden in back of the Gen4 LB a bit and it's fine, nothing like the "teenagers and ballerinas only" Gen1 Volt), but we don't want to overestimate buyers' rationality. On the one hand, that may mean they're not as sensitive as I am to trunk configuration and overall utility, but on the other hand, it may also mean they'll notice "less seating" more than they'll notice "better seating."

From the other end, I suppose I've been uncharitable in dismissing this as a bonehead move, since I'm sure it's more nuanced. All the weight/structure mumbo-jumbo aside, judging from some of the corporate comments, there may also be a cultural issue - it sure sounds like there are decision-makers at Toyota that genuinely believe that the two-seat rear-console configuration conveys prestige and distinctiveness to the Prime, like maybe they think people will perceive an association with that pair of easy chairs in the back of a Maybach.

I'm pretty sure they're wrong as far as the U.S. market is concerned, but perhaps that idea might work better elsewhere.

 

And there have been plenty of other German cars where a 4-seat option is the more expensive, more luxurious option.

But, on most of those cars, it's usually an option.

 

if prime base comes in at 29k, that could put a kink in volt.

 

That price seems hard to believe but I guess it is good timing re: yen/$

 

i know, i'll believe it, (and love it) when i see it.

 

I would not purchase a GM vehicle, but the Volt, and especially the new Malibu, are dang good looking vehicles.

 

Nope. Darn, I guess I'm just never gonna get it, thick bastard that I am.

No, it absolutely is the problem. And that's because . . .

Yes, yes it does (though I think starting from a clean sheet of paper they should have been able to manage it better than a freaking C-MAX). Which is why the PiP was a completely different proposition from the Volt. Toyota put in as much battery as was feasible without compromising space. Yeah, people complained about the not-quite-AER, but they complained nearly as much that it wasn't for sale in their state. So yes, while the PiP was roundly mocked for the lowest AER of any plug-in (wasn't it? I might have missed some marginal player - one of those $60k GM SUVs perhaps?), the fact is that it was well and truly a Prius, and gave up precious little MPG for the fun of enhanced electric operation. My gripe with the Prime is that for their second bite at the apple, Toyota's come in with an unremarkable AER that barely moves the "EV-ness" meter, in a package that most definitely moves the "less useful car" meter.

Toyota hates plug-ins. I get it. I do. But that being the case, there was no reason to deliver a car with a less useful structure just to look a tad more competitive in the plug-in game. It's pretty clear it ain't gonna be cheap (sorry dreamers), or even a seriously competitive offering for PHEV fans (sorry rest of us), but there was never much chance it would be the latter. Toyota would have done far better to deliver a few of the Prime's tricks (e.g., engaging both MGs for a more robust EV mode), but to all 50 states this time, with less AER, less gilded crap, a full trunk (same as the Two/Tree, anyway), and yeah, the same ol' back seat you get in the LB, for a smaller premium than they're likely to want for this curvaceously-windowed carbon-fiber "advanced" offering. It might not have set the EV world on fire, but Prius fans like me would have been able to "understand" it, instead of being stuck in an unfixable befuddlement that so annoys the more enlightened.

 

20 miles of EV range is probably the shortest Toyota could go, and still be taken as a serious PHEV contender. The current ones on the market with shorter ranges are luxury power hybrids. Shorter could have worked if it came with a price cut compared to the PiP. As stated many were upset with Toyota for not selling the PiP in their state, and actually wanted to buy the car. Toyota apparently doesn't want to market the Prius PHEV as an option to the Prius. Instead they want a different model which can carry a premium price.

I think many would have been happy with a Prius PHEV that got 49 to 50 MPG in hybrid mode, if it meant keeping the usability of the non-PHEV.

An option mostly selected by those who pay someone to drive their cars for them.

In the near future, that is true. Right now, the Volt will be eligible for $3000 to $3500 more tax credit than the Prime, and possible more incentives in some states.

GM will run out of credits before Toyota, but they had effective price cuts to the gen 1 Volt during its run. So by the time they do run out of the federal tax credit on the gen2 Volt, the price gap with the Prime could be even narrower than now.

 

unless prime gets cut, but that would be hard without cutting lift back. however, toyota is not averse to gowing lowball with discounts to move product, as we saw with pip.

 

I feel like 8 kWhr has become the defacto minimum legally allowable Plug_in to get key CARB incentives. That coupled with the Gen4 move to "sedan" appearance has cooked the PiP1's goose.

These changes are somewhat shocking to existing owners hooked on Gen2/3 Prius's concept of a bulbous hatchback to give cargo space to a hybrid car. The bottom line is Plug_in owners are willing to sacrifice cargo space (and spare tires) so PiP1 doesn't fly for them, commuters they are.

The only hope we have is a Plug_in v and v sales are dropping fast to RAV4 hybrid.

Those really hooked on Gen2/3/PiP1 can get one used, so it's not like there is no life after Gen3.

 

Toyota could make a cut, but it appears they are taking any battery cost reductions in the past five years, and applying them to making the Prime more luxurious beyond the larger battery pack. The carbon fiber bits add cost, and that rear window wasn't chosen for manufacturing ease.

I likely said this already, but it appears Toyota is going the opposite direction with the Prius PHEV than GM did with Volt in terms of price and luxury appointments.

Without the PiP being available nationwide, this can not be called with 100% assurance. C-max Energi sales were around that of the Fusion Energi for many months. It sacrificed space, but was also an ICE platform converted to a hybrid and PHEV. There was potential for the Prime to minimize cargo space while increasing range, if the platform had been designed with a PHEV in mind. As of now, that doesn't appear to be the case.

They would likely still need to have the PiP shipped to them, if they are still outside those 14 states.

 

I've little doubt those are coming later this year. We've already had reports here of significant discounting in some markets, and as already discussed, Toyota needs to sell the Prius, even at lower profits, in order to move more profitable big iron without blowing their CAFE numbers. In the face of low gasoline prices continuing through this summer (and likely beyond absent a re-think on carbon taxes, since the Saudis have calculated that they're going to have plenty of oil in the ground long after the world stops wanting it, so SELL), that has to mean price cuts (or as manufacturers prefer, rebates).

Gen4 naysayers sitting in aging Gen2/3s and pondering their options may feel a bit differently when the price landscape changes. There's no guarantee, but as the "floor" of LB pricing lowers beneath it, this is likely to apply to the Prime as well with respect to Volt cross-shoppers. As we've said many times here, for the Prime, price is going to be everything.

 

right now, price is everything for all alt fuel vehicles. why do you think a 35k tesla attracted so many deposits?

 

True on the human behavior.

But let's look at the C-max Energi. It is a pig, being less than 150lbs shy of 2 tons. Worse case, the Prime might be 400 pounds lighter. The C-Max has a slightly smaller battery at 7.6kWh, yet has about the same EV range than what was announced for the Prime. Granted, lower max EV speed, and more hybrid blending could explain that, but we are still taking about a heavier car with smaller battery. A battery that is using 3 year old technology. GM was able to improve the EV performance of the Volt and Spark EV at about the mid-cycle point.

Then there is the issue of lost space. The C-max keeps the same five seats, and while we don't have official numbers and there might be different measuring standards in play, it and the Prime appear to lose the same amount of cargo space. The C-max does lose 2mpg combined compared to the hybrid.

So the only advantage the Prime has when compared to a 3 year old PHEV built on an ICE platform is better fuel economy. And talk about it being a more luxurious, upscale Prius, which is usually code for higher price. And possibly a couple grand cheaper.

We expected better of Toyota.

So, yes, if the range had been shorter, we'd have bitched and moaned about that. But the root reason would still be the same; Toyota failed us. Batteries have improved in three years. While the Prius is the most efficient car the majority can buy, a slight reduction in the Prime's efficiency in comparison would still leave it the most efficient PHEV the majority can buy. Most shopping plug ins understand that there are trade offs in designing the car. Most would likely accept slightly worse MPG than the Prius if it meant retaining the passenger and cargo capabilities that were the PiP's advantage over the other PHEVs available.

The Prime shown was a prototype, so there maybe is the possibility of reconfiguring the final production model. Some comments seem to support this. Perhaps Toyota has been low balling some specs for a big surprise on the final reveal. Or, the dread fueling the kvetching, Toyota truly doesn't care about offering a plug in, and they half-assed this for CARB requirements and to keep up appearances.

 

I do not feel Toyota hates plug-ins, I just think they feel it is less profitable for them, with the implication being other companies are compromising profit margin to get into the USA Plug-in market. I also see Plug-ins as "politically correct" policy direction that America/Congress/EPA would like to encourage for the USA, but it does not necessarily fit well for Toyota as a Japan's premier hybrid expert. One could argue America's preference for plug-ins is almost a direct national strategy to compete against Toyota, since Toyota already has the hybrid space locked up.

The Prime will be nice commuting vehicle with comfort and great cruise range. Some will buy it for Toyota quality, others will buy say Volt. Toyota's effective profits on Prime (after CARB quota is met) probably highest for the initial batch of vehicles sold, so selling large number of copies may be counter-productive.

If the Prime Li batteries seem behind the times (conjecture) it would be due to trying to achieve reliability and probably minimize cost of the batts. God forbid reliability was sacrificed as well as 5th seat, that would be the worse case scenario for Toyota (not acceptable for the brand).