2016 owners, do you wish you had waited for prime?

...was in San Fran last week, surprised how many of the yellow stickers still on an few Prii
But I am expecting poss Green HOV extension by June

I'd say the Prime was not made for us...I guess I gotta wait for all the incentives to go away and then Toyota's plug-in-lite idea comes back in favor

 

Ya, I took my yellow stickers off a long time ago. They started to fade and peel. The part of the paint that was protected by the sticker was less faded than the rest of the paint.

 

Okay, so how much is the Prime going to cost in the UK...? Our base model Gen 4 is £24,000....

 

...don't believe we know pricing yet for any region

 

If I hadn't stumbled into a Toyota dealer (because Peugeot didn't have the 208 diesel I wanted in that day, and Honda were missing a Jazz Hybrid), if the dealer didn't have one Prius right in the doorway... I think if I didn't fall in love with the Prius then and there, and they didn't have the showroom one for me - I couldn't even have waited till August for a Gen 4, let alone till whenever for a Prime...! I have been a lifelong diesel driver - really only the 1st Gen Honda Insight excited me about Hybrids, but the importers of mint Jap models ignored my enquiring emails. If I didn't impulse buy the Prius (we passed by to look at the Yaris Hybrid), I may have got a diesel Jag, or a another diesel supermini... What I'm saying is, it was a million to one shot (or feels like it) that I bought a petrol hybrid, and that I spent that much on one.
In the dealers I immediately asked about plug-in - they had no idea if one was coming, let alone ETA. Did I wish I waited for a Prime? I'm just glad I bought a Prius at all, I Iove it!

 

Still waiting my Prius to be arrived but happy with the choice. Even this one was on very close to my max price range (~40k€) and Im sure Prime would not be any cheaper.

 

Already have a BEV so no need for 2nd plugin, and unlike the PiP the Prime is significantly comprised as a car. If I wanted a phev at this point I'd probably go with the Gen2 Volt. For all the upgrades the Prime is still a hev with a bigger battery, the Volt a BEV with range ext.

 

In what regard?

Prime will offer a heating system better for EV. It will use a gas-injected heat-pump. That's more efficient than the resistance type used by Volt. Saving more electricity for use as propulsion is more of an EV trait than hybrid.

The terminology of "range extended" really doesn't serve any purpose anymore.

 

Spoken like a true Prius bigot.

This isn't even worthy of discussion. I'm not going to quibble over who's heater is more EV'ish, nor do I need to. The Volt is intended to operate primarily as a BEV, the Prime largely as an HEV and in both cases it shows. The Prime has much less AER, so much less that most people will not be able to perform a daily commute without burning gas. The Volt operates quite a bit less effectively as a hybrid than the Prime, in part because that functionality is secondary to its main purpose, so its ICE is almost entirely limited to generating electric power, not physically engaging to move the car (which, unlike HSD, it can only do in very limited circumstances).

The idea that "range extended" doesn't mean anything is ridiculous. It certainly is very meaningful for BMW's i3, a vehicle that I think does raise some questions about Chevy's use of the term. But given the way Volts work in the real world, technology aside, their ICEs do operate primarily as REs to supplement BEV operation. That is philosophically and practically different from the Prius, where the ICE is where the action is and the battery-backed M/Gs are there to improve the efficiency of the ICE. The Prime has been tweaked a bit to improve EV operation and make some BEV functionality available, but yes, it is certainly a hybrid first and foremost. Those who don't like that should take their complaints to Toyota, not pretend that they don't know "In what regard?" a Volt is more of a real-world EV than the Prime.

Criminy.

 

I am very happy with my soon to be Gen4 Prius 4 touring. I waited a year to get the gen 4 after my 2014 was totaled, and have been driving my gas guzzler Ford F-150. It gets a whopping 15 mpg on the freeway at 70mpg and has 241,000 miles on it. So the idea of getting a few more mpg over the current gen4 doesn't change my decision. I think the Prime looks fantastic, but it will initially be expensive, so why bother waiting.

I reserved two Tesla model 3 so I'm hoping it's an in demand car, so I can sell both of them for a markup. I waited in line at 6:30am so I was number 58 in line and I bumped into a guy who owns the company. He personally thanked everyone for reserving a model 3. He went down the line and high 5ed everyone and shook a few hands.

I'm waiting for the day when I can press a button and fall asleep while driving an ADAS At 130mph down the 405 Freeway during rush hour traffic.

 

Yet, you did anyway. Simply brushing aside 6 years of history as if it never happened is not constructive.

We will continue to point out those differences. The reason is simple: to get a better understanding of the real-world efficiency.

No label will accomplish that.

Replies which focus on putting down the poster tend to be an indication of missing or incomplete information. I found many occasions where a Volt owner started with attitude then became a helpful ally, simply by taking the time to explain the technology. Far to many people get hung up with terminology and don't actually take the time to look at detail.

In this case, we see that Prime introduced a clutch, allowing the engine to disconnect so the 2 motors can work together to provide propulsion power. With Volt, we see the same thing having been introduced. Different direction. Same outcome.

Sighting battery-capacity as a difference has no impact on the design itself. It's basically like having a larger gas tank. For that matter, neither is the size of the electric motors. That's similar to comparing a 6-cyclinder engine to a 4-cylinder.

Why would one be more EV than the other and what does that even matter?

 

Quite right. My mistake. I made a broad observation in a topic area about whether I feel I should have waited for the Prime. I don't, in part because it promises to be a bit spend-y (we'll see where the numbers wind up), in part because it is less of an EV for real world purposes than the roughly similarly Chevy Volt. This has somehow drawn me into a religious discussion of EV-ness for having attacked the honor of the Prius Prime and questioned whether it's really competitive with the Volt.

My position is that a PHEV with significantly less AER is "less of an EV" than one with more AER. If AER is not what I want, why would I be looking at a Prime in the first place? If AER is of interest, how could "more" or "less" not be relevant? And what does 5 or 6 or 10 years of history have to do with any of that?

People with 40 mi. daily commutes can do it on grid power with a Volt, but not with a Prime. Those considerations are not about labels, and they are not related to in-depth engineering discussions of elegance and efficiency, or whatever it is you're obsessing over. I'm not saying you're wrong on the facts, just that you seem to be focusing on issues out of scope for this discussion.

As for getting hung up labels, what kind of an argument is (paraphrasing) "It's just as much of an EV, only with less range" supposed to be if not defending a label? It is an argument I suppose I have no quarrel with - I just don't understand what it's about that would matter to me.

 

Looking at Volt's history, we see that it was intended to be the direct competition for Tesla's lower cost offering. So, from the start, it was designed to be an EV. That approach of using an engine still allowed the battery-pack to be much smaller. The tradeoff was cost & complexity. GM realized this wasn't going to work as the rollout of Volt approached and bits of info from Tesla were shared. That's how Bolt emerged.

Bolt was an abandonment of all that GM had preached. The anti-EV sentiment it had fought so much for was suddenly embraced. Resources would be heavily invested in it instead, to the point where Volt rollout would be delayed & reduced.

Then here comes Toyota with Prime, targeting a completely different audience with a very different approach. It never made any sense to compare the plug-in Prius to Volt and it still doesn't with Prime. GM is pursuing those interested in the pure EV experience now. Toyota is targeting its own customers, hoping they will chose to purchase a hybrid rather than a traditional vehicle.

Prime will expand upon the same type of appeal Prius did. More EV is nice, but by no means necessary. In other words, the targeted customers won't be looking for a 100% gas-free driving experience anyway. So whatever Volt is or will become doesn't even matter, no label necessary.

This is why the question "Who is the market for Volt?" was asked so many times over the past 6 years. The difference of audience was profoundly important, yet that kept getting lost in the "more EV is needed" claim. If Volt wasn't to compete with Tesla anymore and wouldn't draw interest from GM own customers, what is its purpose?

Understand why? No harm done. Taking the time to discuss perspectives is helpful to everyone. The rapidly evolving market deserves a fresh relook at everything.

 

I strongly disagree. With the Prime's much-improved AER and the Volt's improved hybrid MPG, as well as the Volt's improved passenger accommodations and the Prime's reduced utility compared to the LB (or PiP), the two vehicles overlap more than ever before, and will definitely be cross-shopped. You think the history of how we got here and/or the stories the manufacturers tell (to buyers or to themselves) matter a lot. I think those factors matter very little, if at all - the buyer in the showroom is concerned with meeting their personal transportation needs, which may include a number of factors beyond obvious issues of cost and capacities, but rarely concerns itself with historical context or opinions of the manufacturers' marketing strategies, much less the nuances of technical design.

As we've discussed elsewhere in this forum, the argument for the Prime comes down to a slice of a niche. There are those who do want a BEV most of the time, whose daily needs are within the Prime's AER (with or without charging away from home), and who also fairly often want superior fuel economy for longer distance travel beyond the Volt's AER. That's all pretty mundane, but it's real. You can add into that brand loyalty, aesthetics, domestic vs. import, etc., etc., but it has nothing to do with targeting customers who want to buy a PHEV while having no interest in a 100% electric driving experience. Those people don't exist; if you don't care about AER or BEV operation, then you're going to buy a Prius LB, not a Prime or a Volt. It may well be that there are Toyota product planners who disagree with that reasoning, but I think they are doomed to disappointment.

I guess we'll find out next year.

 

That's the "who" problem I've been harping about. People mix up enthusiast interests with those of ordinary buyers all the time. They're quite different. That history is only of any value to the enthusiast.

Again, know your audience. Cross-Shopping research is an attribute of consumers quite different from that of the showroom floor customer. When someone wanting a Toyota vehicle goes to their local dealer, they will be making a choice between a Corolla, Camry, RAV4, Prius... etc. Prime will join that mix of offerings. They are the consumers targeted, not others who would consider another automaker... like GM.

That's what happens when the next stage is reached. The goal is to phaseout traditional vehicles, not to score conquest sales.

Could you provide some more information about that thought please?

Something is missing, since the 100% driving experience has been addressed. With Prime, even full acceleration won't trigger the engine to start.

It seems to be a matter of "not enough EV range" without any clarification of what enough actually is. For shorter commutes and errand running, it will be all electric. What else is there? People with longer drives will still experience averages over 100 MPG, which is a plug-in hybrid selling point that will be easy to convey.

That brings us back to the topic of this thread... waiting.

Circumstances will be very different a year from now.

Look no further than what happened 2 weeks ago for confirmation of that. Tesla's new pressure on GM will push so hard, something will end up giving. Expect some sort of plan change. If Bolt volume really is ramped up for the sake of getting ahead of Model 3, it very well could come at the sacrifice of Volt. There's the consideration of both battery-pack production capacity and tax-credit availability. There's also the range-anxiety conflict about how to promote.

That could leave Prime outside of the realm of all that.

 

Clutch? I would have expected a flywheel pawl . . . much cheaper. Or is it a 'clutch' to freeze the flywheel?

I was going to wait for the Prius Prime release and then buy a month of TIS to get the New Car Features and maintenance manuals. Then search the SAE papers. Would you have a handy source about the 'clutch'?

Thanks,
Bob Wilson

 

Oh, where to begin? We are obviously talking in circles, but at least let me respond to the last set of specific points, after which I might just give up. Exchanging perspectives is all well and good, but my interest in the Prime's merits vs. the Volt is fast being exhausted. Neither one suits me today, so this is kind of moot.

Anyway . . .

SInce when did this exchange have anything do with "information"? I thought we were just exchanging groundless speculations and opinions, though perhaps you have a higher opinion of your own offerings. Indeed, my thought was partly in response to your thought:

So to paraphrase how this sounds to me:

j: targeted customers aren't looking for 100% gas-free driving
v: if they have no interest in EV driving, why buy a plug-in?
j: explain yourself - the Prime does offer 100% electric operation

I just don't follow your thinking here.

There's longer commutes and more errand running. There is no magic "enough" value - more AER satisfies more use cases, up to and including cross-country driving. The key is meeting a particular buyer's needs. Which brings us to:

And there you have it - the real heart of the argument after you blow the smoke away. All I started with here was:

1. People who don't want a plug-in will just buy the LB, not a Prime as a "premium" upgrade.
2. People who do want a plug-in are likely to prefer the greater AER of the Volt, especially if it comes at no extra cost relative to the Prime.
3. The Prime has given up the PiP's former advantages of greater passenger and cargo capacity, at least in part.

. . . therefore:

4. I think the Prime will appeal to a relatively small group of customers.

And what john's adding here, as best as I can tell, is:

5. But for those diehard Toyota loyalists, this is the PHEV for them, because it's the only PHEV Toyota will sell them.

And how could I argue with that? If cross-shopping is only for enthusiasts and most car buyers are brand-loyal, the Prime might do swell selling to legions of well-heeled green-leaning choice-inhibited Toyotistas. I'm sure Toyota hopes so.

But I wouldn't bet on it.

 

This is the overview for the Prime system...

The one-way clutch is mentioned at 1:50

 

I was going to say yes to Prime one the reveal happened - then I saw it was a 4 seater.... so I would have passed.

$1000 later..... deposit on a Model 3 happened for me....

 

Well, yeah . . . that's the other way to go. Mind you, if it's going to be my only car, I still want an ICE RE on board, so even a Tesla's only good for me if there's a PHEV sitting next to it.

In that context, since I made a passing reference to the BMW i3 earlier, I should note that I do NOT count the i3 w/REx as a PHEV that would satisfy the above. I think it is too much of a plug-in to be my only car, at least if road trips are part of the picture. The Volt and Prime are far superior long distance vehicles, with real full-performance ICE drivetrains and useful fuel tanks.