Lexus LC500h unveiled at Geneve March 2016

Toyota Employs New Hybrid Mechanism for Lexus Hybrid Coupe(Mar 7, 2016)

 

Toyota had a two stage CVT with the LS600h matched to a 5 litre ICE since 2007. They've also incorporated HSD in their new Mirai Fuel Cell car. I wouldn't call it stagnation

 

HSD is just marketing and branding in the Mirai. There is nothing hybrid about a FCEV drive train; it is just electric.

 

Not really the same.

The LS600h just had a choice between two internal gear reduction ratios for MG2 only and not on the output of the power-split gear set, as I recall.

The new LC 500h has a choice between 4 different final gear reduction ratios that are applied to the complete output of the eCVT unit.

 

The two stage wasn't a choice - the second stage kicked in around 50mph. The "gear" and "power mode" choices were just programming I believe.

 

Sure, I didn't mean to say that these were driver choices. This was a choice between two MG2 reduction gear ratios that the hybrid control computer could choose between.

 

Yes, but it was 9 years ago. Since 2007 was launch of 3Gen Prius (2009) and 4Gen..

Mirai is electric vehicle. Unlike Prius, it don't need HSD.

 

It's still a serial hybrid where the motors are being run by power from the battery, the fuel cell, or a "synergy" of both as needed.

 

Which innards are those? It has one electric motor. It doesn't have a PSD doing any blending of different motive forces.

It's a serial hybrid like a BEV is a serial hybrid. A fuel cell can be viewed as a flow battery, and its components are similar to a battery's. It is chemical energy being directly converted to electrical. In a serial hybrid, it's chemical to mechanical to electrical.

Which is why the HSD of Toyota FCEVs is just branding and marketing.

 

No - the Mirai has two sources of power - the BEV has one and is not a hybrid. Hybrid Synergy Drive® is smart technology. It senses the driving situation and engine demand then automatically tells the car when to switch between the Fuel Cell electric and separate battery electric power or when to combine both for maximum efficiency. The PCU is under the hood doing the blending.

Another example of a serial hybrid is the Volt or any other REEV.

 

If Mirai is not a hybrid then neither Toyota HSD vehicle is a hybrid too. Prius HSD gets all the energy from gasoline fuel. Then part of this fuel is transformed in electric power. Mirai needs hydrogen fuel. The only difference is that gas ICE needs a generator to produce electricity, while Mirai FC stack already produce the electricity without the harmful emissions.

It does not need to have an IQ average or above to understand that Toyota took the HSD from a Camry hybrid/Lexus ES300h replaced the ICE, e-CVT and gas fuel tank with an FC stack and hydrogen tank and voila the Mirai was born. Still Mirai functions as a Camry hybrid/Lexus ES300h.

If you were correct then you would have made a case for ICE engines on Toyota hybrid vehicles or the eCVT too! Toyota says that these engines are Atkinson engines. Technically they are not, but Toyota simulates the function of an Atkinson engine using software. The same can be said for eCVT, because it is actually a differential rather than a gearbox. Yet nobody complains when they call it a CVT gearbox. But I don't see you complaining in all these cases, claiming it is all about Toyota branding and marketing too and rightfully so. I just scratch my head why you make an exception to Mirai, when your behaviour on the atkinson/eCVT aspects reveal that you already understand that function is what matters.

 

Work is going on with using Al-air batteries for use as range extenders for BEVs. Like a fuel cell, they make electricity directly from chemical that is just different than the rechargable batteries. Are they a hybrid?

Within cars, hybrid refers to the use of two kinetic energy power sources; an ICE and electric motor or ICE and hydraulic motor. It isn't about where the energy for that power comes from, since most hybrids really only have one. If a car has more than one energy source it can use, that isn't blended like a flex fuel, it is called a bi-fuel under US vehicle regulations. A plugin FCEV, or BEV with Al-air could be called a bi-fuel car.

Toyota is the only one referring to their FCEV as a hybrid. The other automakers, the DOE, and National labs all refer to them as an electric vehicle.

Since I am below average IQ, maybe you can explain to me where the fuel cell's driveshaft is?

Is Atkinson, Atkinsonized, or eCVT trademarked by Toyota? Are the other auto makers paying them royalities for using these terms?

Toyota calls their FCEV a hybrid because they want to link it with their successful HSD trademark.

 

There are already several ICE cars with regenerative brakes out. Mazda's system is probably the most common in North America. Some call start/stop systems micro-hybrids. Would you such equipped cars hybrids with a straight face?

If the fuel cell stack is placing the ICE, why can't it directly drive the wheels like one. Fuel cells are batteries, but different. They are made up of cells containing anodes and cathodes, like batteries. Unlike batteries, their chemical reactants and products are stored outside(hydrogen), freely available in the environment(oxygen), or simply dumped over board(water), instead of all being stored within itself like a battery does.

In terms of vehicles, hybrids are one vehicles with two different propulsion devices, usually an ICE and an electric or hydraulic motor. In the case of serial hybrids, the ICE propulsion devices isn't connected to the wheels, but to a generator of hydraulic pump.

Take the battery and motor out of a hybrid, and you got the basic ICE car. Take them out of a FCEV, and you got an electric power source that can be pushed around the parking lot.

Is there any reference to FCEVs being a hybrid from Honda, GM, Hyundai, etc.?

 

The Mirai has a traction pack because a fuel cell car wouldn't be a workable personal car without it. A traction pack does not a hybrid make.

 

Pretending stupidity is the last defence zone for those who cannot explain their motives- usually politicians use this trick when there is no other way to fool. So stop irritating me, by pretending incompetency to comprehend, because you are not such a person. In your own post number #33, you provide the answer to your own question, by quoting a part of my wording sharply below that question!

and then when I ask you personally why you make an exception to Mirai, when your behaviour on the atkinson/eCVT aspects reveal that you already understand that function is what matters, you reply me as follows!

You avoid answering the personal question I made to you and this time you use a bit of irony too- other members will understand below. Paying royalties is an economical matter that affects companies who have a special interest on this subject. I don't see how these companies interests could affect the stance of some priuschat members across discussions, without the later having some directly or indirectly in most cases like yours I suppose- suspicious connection with the former.

Seems that you like playing tricks mr Troll who set the baits. You could not answer my only question, and then you tried to pass this awkward moment bloodlessly, lighting the mood by burning out your cards. It seems that you remembered that in the past I had expressed my opinion that many members -indicating you too- in priuschat act as agents who spread propaganda against toyota and try to showcase their own agenda and you thought this a good opportunity to go through.

 

You were the one inferring that I was stupid in your post I was replying too.

My exception isn't to the Mirai, but Toyota saying their FCEVs have HSD, and acting like that is technically true. This creates ignorance and misunderstanding about what hybrids and FCEVs are and how they work.

HSD is a parallel and serial hybrid system for an ICE car, that uses a planetary gear set to blend those two modes together.

A FCEV, and Toyota's is no different than the rest, is a basic electric drive train that uses a fuel cell for the electricity source. It has a traction battery because the output of the fuel cell can not change fast enough to meet the power demands expected of a modern personal car.

Some of the misunderstanding using the HSD label on a FECV can seen in this thread when it is stated that the fuel cell replaces the ICE in the HSD system. An ICE produces rotational force that can be used to propel a vehicle, or to produce electricity when mated to a generator. A fuel cell produces electricity only. It won't move a car any where without the addition of an electric motor.

Toyota using HSD on an ICE only car would be called out on the BS. Using it on a FCEV is just the other side of the coin.

I don't have an issue with Atkinson and eCVT because they are labels that work as fillers for repeating a description. Using HSD for a FCEV does nothing in explaining the FCEV as a system, and actually hinder the understanding of it.

The term hybrid as it relates to cars does not refer to the use of different energy sources to propel the car. If it did, a heavy duty Silverado that was a bi-fuel gasoline and CNG would be a hybrid. It is not.

There was no question in your post.

I brought up royalties as part of the explanation on how Atkinson and eCVT were different from HSD. The former are open source. HSD is not. The loose reasoning Toyota uses for applying HSD to their FCEVs would allow the other companies to apply it to their FCEVs, hybrids, and BEVs. The don't, in part because of copyright and trademark laws.

Wait. Do you suffer from paranoia?

Guess, that answers that.

My denying being some agent or sock puppet wouldn't be enough for you. Which is likely why I didn't bother answering your question in the past, if it involved the subject. But for the others here...

My original screen name on PriusChat was ShellyT, after the name of my 2005 Prius. My join date is under my name. I bought the Prius because it was a Prius. Did not matter to me that it was a Toyota or not. Because of changes in situations, I had to sell my Prius. Soon after that I asked Danny to change my screen name Trollbait, which I have been using on other forums. The name has no links to the internet use, but to the fact I have had more than one D&D character die leading a troll away from the rest of the party.

I still stick around here because of the discussions on alternate fuels and cars.