What I don't like about the Prius Prime

20k per year stated sales goal in the USA I presume at the show.... Prime as in best Prius, definitely not as best selling Prius

 

My guess on when the Prime name was trademark was that it would be the name of the Prius. You know, the first one. In order to better distinguish it from the c, v, plug in, or whatever else comes down the line.

Not truly reflective of the car's name. Neither was PiP for that matter. Toyota put Plug In at the end. I'm think Prime works without confusing newbs with alphabet soup.

 

except it connotes no meaning, until you know what it means. pip is for insider use, plug in should be for marketing.

 

Alas, things are much crazier than that. Last year's MEDIAN transaction price (half were less, half were more) was well over $30k. In other words, most people buying a new car are already spending more than the price of a Prius.




merged

Beginning of what? The Mirai, like all H2FC projects, is a scam aimed at diverting legislatures and regulators from supporting BEVs. Unless some currently unknown technologies are developed to address the myriad problems with H2 production, transport, and storage, H2FC is a dead end. As things stand today, any method used to produce H2 would be better used to either deliver alternative fuel to ICE (e.g., natural gas, biodiesel, etc.) or charge batteries in BEVs. Its sole advantage is rapid refueling on a par with gasoline/diesel, but when the primary competition (BEVs) can recharge off the existing (and ubiquitous) electric grid in owners' garages, that's not enough of an advantage to overcome the economics.

And yes, H2FC tech does of course improve over time, but so does everything else. So far every H2FC improvement has been overmatched by progress in batteries. Electric motors are a wash, since at that level the tech for BEV and H2FC are identical. In the "long term", the Mirai isn't anything but an embarrassment.

 

I think the biggest underestimating on Toyota's part is that Evs become a home source for "fuel" and not because it takes a while to charge...

If a car could be powered by h2o it would be similar but maybe refuel would be faster. Imagine Pete catching raindrops..

 

does that stat include light trucks?

 

I'm sure it does, since consumers buy SUVs as passenger cars, but "light truck" is a very slippery term, potentially applying to F-350s hauling gravel. The $32k figure is the median transaction price for consumer vehicle purchases.

The broader point is that kvetching about the high price of hybrids is largely unfounded; Toyota has configured the Prius in such a way that you pay a small premium for its tech, not a huge one. A Prius is noticeably larger inside than the Corolla to which idiot journalists like to compare it, while Prius pricing overlaps quite a bit with Camrys, Altimas, Accords, etc., its actual peers in terms of space and utility (as I've noted elsewhere, a Prius has more passenger volume than an Altima, very close to a Camry, much closer to an Accord than a Civic). Toyota fiddles with other bits of the car to reduce costs, so you're ultimately choosing how to spend the cash - efficient technology or plusher accommodations. It's a matter of priorities, not "affordability."

So back to your question, yes light trucks are included, and I think that's very relevant. The guy commuting to work solo in an Expedition that never goes off road who says "Hybrids are too expensive" is an ignoramus - and the car-buying public is full of 'em.

Now, to keep this post vaguely on-topic, when it comes to the value of the Prius Prime, well, that's a whole other kettle of fish . . .



merged...

I'm not entirely surely I'm parsing that, but if this is a re-hash of the "Hydrogen is everywhere - water is 2/3 hydrogen!" fallacy, let me see if I can help with that. Saying water would be a great fuel if we could just "separate out" the H2 is exactly like saying, "Gee the fire's gone out, and I don't feel like getting another log - I wish I could figure out a way to burn these ashes!"

Water is effectively "burned" (oxidized) hydrogen (H2). The only way to "extract" the H2 is to "un-burn" it by applying energy to reverse the chemical reaction (the "burning") that created it. That means electricity, and the counter-argument to doing that is that it's just way more efficient to use that same electricity to charge a BEV's traction battery. Re-factoring from natural gas runs into similar problems; net/net, unless you engineer a whole secondary system to capture/sequester the released carbon (i.e., even more expense and inefficiency), you're better off just burning it in a CNG vehicle.

H2FC fans are the kind of people that somehow never understood "There's no such thing as a free lunch" in economics class. The bill's always paid by someone - and that's just as true for the energy tab to produce H2. H2 is NOT a source of energy - it's a medium for storing energy generated by other means. And as a storage medium, it really does kind of suck.

Against all that, PHEVs make huge sense given our current energy infrastructure of electrical grid and gasoline distribution. I just don't think the Prius Prime, hobbled in part by Toyota's ill-concealed hostility to plug-ins, is a particularly strong effort. IMHO it's already overmatched by Chevy's Volt, on a par with Ford's so-so Energi cars. Mitsubishi and Hyundai/Kia appear poised to bring even more competitive and useful PHEVs to market before the end of next year - what's in Toyota's pipeline?

 

Officially, it's FCA, Fiat Chrysler Automobiles.

 

i just think the majority of mericans, who might consider an alt fuel vehicle, all other things being equal, will want something in the 15-25k range. pick up trucks excepted from the equation. and i f there is a non alt fuel equivalent, that presents a stumbling block to sales. heck, even at the same price, not many people bought the hybrid mercury over the gasser. fear of repair costs?

 

Once upon a time, that was once true, but the Corolla has bloated up the small end of the midsize pool with the Prius. Then the gen4 lost some passenger volume compared to the gen3. A hatchback and wagon can feel larger because the cargo area isn't separate, but there are reasons people prefer a trunk.
Compare Side-by-Side

They would $15k for any decent car. The MSRP on my mid-trim Sonic with automatic and upgraded engine was over $20k. The Prius c is over $20k once add the things people take for granted in a car now. Counting the federal tax credit, $25k is the reasonably lowest I'd expect a plug in car to be that could appeal to a large customer base. The shorter range BEVs are lower, but they are small cars in addition to the shorter range. The Ioniq PHEV will also be a smaller car. I'm just hoping the Prime will start a couple thousand under the Volt at this point.

Those with an anti-hybrid bias like to point out that the Lincoln MKZ hybrid didn't match the ICE model in sales. It is 30% to 40% of the models sales. They are ignorant, or hoping the audience is, of the fact that the ICE sales include the V6 with AWD model. Which has a higher price than the hybrid and the base ICE which have the same price. I haven't heard of a break down of the sales figures without the bigger engine model, but the hybrid to base engine(which is the 2L Ecoboost, the current most powerful engine option for the Fusion) sales will be closer.

 

you can get a well equipped camry for under 20k, and they are quite popular. i'm not talking msrp, because they are always discounted to those who ask.

 

Okay, got it. So now you know if I write F/C in future, it is out of sheer perversity .

I think you mean Lincoln; Mercury's been dead a while, and that pricing only held for the MKZ. I never saw the numbers on that, but with the possible exception of road-bound traveling salesmen, luxo car buyers are probably more interested in a smoother V6 and a full-size trunk than higher MPG.

As for $15k hybrids, you must be smoking something. You can barely get a Yaris or Versa for that kind of money.

Well, I'll be danged. The mistake I made was looking at a comparison chart at Edmunds that showed EPA INTERIOR VOLUME, not PASSENGER VOLUME; I was able to confirm those fueleconomy.gov measurements in the Toyota comparison tool. This weakens/alters my argument, but doesn't destroy it. Again, my point is that once you're able to comfortably transport four adults and some luggage, what you get beyond that by spending more is a matter of priorities. Though the back seat is a bit tighter than in our Gen2, that's true of most cars (the Gen2 has insane leg room), and the Gen4 Prius is definitely not cramped for passenger room. It's an entirely serviceable family car, and really all the car most people need.

Yes, and I seriously hate those reasons, because they've kept hatchbacks and wagons off the American market (hence unavailable to me) for years. We are almost uniquely dimwitted in this regard, with a market broken down between car buyers that insist on sedans or coupes, people with common sense who want greater utility insisting on minivans, and knuckle-draggers insisting on the truckiest thing they can afford regardless of application or operating cost. We've only been able to resurrect the station wagon by jacking it up, wrapping it in truck-shaped sheetmetal, and calling it a "crossover." The Equinox is actually a decent mid-size station wagon, but GM can only sell it by making the dimbulbs think they're buying a value-priced SUV. Even the eminently sensible Fuji HI (Subaru), the company that arguably invented the crossover concept (if you don't count AMC's amazing but idiosyncratic Eagle AWD line), finally gave up on selling non-Outback Legacy wagons.

I think that $25k number is about right, which you'll note is right where a base-model Volt lands if you earn enough to take the full $7500 credit (don't even get me started on the idiocy of withholding subsidies from lower earners). But since the Prime's half-pint battery won't qualify for the full subsidy, it's already $3k in the hole compared to the Volt, making it more costly in real terms even if Toyota manages to hit that $30k price point (which I highly doubt they are motivated to do).

 

Neither did I pay over $20k for my Sonic. But that is what dealers will take, and manufacturers set MSRP. Which if too high might keep people from talking to the dealer.

The current MKZ has the 2L Ecoboost for its base engine. This is the engine that replaced the V6 option in the Fusion. This is the ICE drivetrain that is the same price as the hybrid in the MKZ. Neither of them have an AWD option. To get that, the buyer has to shell out for the V6 option for the MKZ.

If it were possible to filter out those V6 AWD sales, the hybrid to same price ICE ones would be approaching 50/50. Even with them counted , the MKZ hybrid sales are a much higher portion of the model's total sales than in the non-luxury midsize hybrid sedans.

I agree about the Prius being the right size to work for most families, and thus the disappointment in the Prime having only 4 seats.

The reasons for choosing a sedan, aren't the reasons that the wagon died in the US. That is a mix of personal perception, profits, and regulations. The year I went to a Honda dealership to look at the Civic hatchback, was the year they stopped making them, and the slaescritter wanted to show me the CRV. These reasons overlap with why cars in the US don't have tow rating, but do in other markets.

Along a more secure cargo area, a trunk does mean lower cabin noise, and makes it easier to design a car with better handling.

It looks like Toyota wants to go the opposite way of GM in regards to their PHEV model. The Volt started out expensive with appointments to match, and GM worked on getting the cost lower to make it available to more people. The PiP was Toyota's idea of what would work as a mainstream PHEV, but it appears they are abandoning the larger market of 'affordable' PHEVs to pursue profits in the smaller upscale segment.

 

It would be nice to see those numbers. If this is true, Ford could up their eco game a couple notches by introducing an eAWD system, which are in many ways simpler to add to a hybrid than mechanical AWD to a conventionally powered vehicle. I still can't tell if Ford's trying to play a good game or just talking one up.

I wouldn't disagree - it's easier to build a more rigid body structure with a sedan architecture than a hatchback. But I don't think the finer points of extreme handling play that big a role in buying decisions, and buyers fixated on wheeled boxes like minivans and SUVs are clearly not overly committed to hushed interiors with aft-mounted secure vaults. Even before the SUV phenomenon blasted through the market, hatchbacks had fallen from favor here, much as four-door cars just "looked wrong" in some Latin American markets back in the '80s (perhaps they still are, but yeah, that was a thing).

I believe they are doomed to disappointment. Time will tell.

 

Ultimately I agree with spwolf, seems like the PiP2 is designed to grab high Plug_in subsidies in certain countries and states (EU, Canada). In the USA main target is CA and CARB states, where Toyota will presumably get ZEV credits.

By about June_2016 we hear if California extends green HOV stickers. Right now CARB is holding applications, in other words, PHEV owners can still submit their HOV forms because CARB assumes the program could be extended. If so, PriP (can I call it PriP?) will be a USA winner for Toyota regarding ZEV credits.

For non-CARB me, give me 5 kWHR batt, 5 seats, and wireless charging. But this was Toyota's orig idea, and everyone (EV fans, regulators) pooped all over it, demanding bigger batteries.

 

In 2013, hybrids were 40% of MKZ production, and in 2014 they made up 32% of sales. The other hybrid sedans make up about 10% of their model sales.
2014 Lincoln MKZ Hybrid Production To Double To 40 Percent Of Total
https://media.lincoln.com/content/lincolnmedia/lna/us/en/news/2015/01/08/lincoln-builds-momentum-from-improved-sales--new-vehicles.pdf

Ford didn't use eAWD on the Escape hybrid; just the system from the ICE model. That would probably be easier than installing something more powerful than Toyota's E-four on a sedan because of available space. They already got the traditional AWD. That would also world with the base engine, but Ford is using it to lure people to the higher profit V6 model.

The huge US wagons of yesteryear did have some of the stigma that minivans now have in some quarters. But what really hurt them was changing emission and safety regulations. They suffered the same fate as the huge sedans. Meanwhile, as trucks, SUVs and minivans weren't burdened by these new regulations in their price and performance. They also had higher profit margins. So focusing on the SUV instead of a viable wagon became the business plan.

With most hatchbacks being econoboxes in the past, I think they picked up the poor man's car image.

PHEVs only get counted towards the manufacturer's ZEV quota. They don't get any sellable credits.

It will help, but only the Mirai is netting them the real credits at this time.

If it had been marketed, and priced, as a factory alternative to the kits and DIY plug in projects, it might have had a better reception.

 

Take a look at the Nissan Leaf. I can buy one today for $7000 used all day long. (I got one last year for $9000)

You can build it rock solid but if the specs don't hold up three years down the line when cars are coming off lease the resale value plummets.

I love my Leaf, better than any prius I've driven. But it isn't perfect and I'd like to have an even better EV.

 

correct. value is determined by demand. pip is in a long line of rapidly depreciating alt fuel vehicles.

until we reach a reasonable tech plateau, nothing will change.

 

Oh, must we? In the context of all-Prius discussions, isn't Prime compact enough in itself?

 

I couldn't imagine "Prime" not catching on. After all, there is only a small group of early adopters & enthusiats who ever used "PiP" anyway.

The market for plug-in hybrids is still quite new. Most people know little beyond the basics and certainly aren't aware of the history.

We want to make it clear which generation we're discussing. So, it is our best interest to intentionally differentiate the generations. Calling them each by a unique name makes it a heck of a lot easier, especially with respect to searches.

Simply altering an unfamiliar abbreviation is not the way to go.