What I don't like about the Prius Prime

Do you know what the colors will be for the Prime? I assume that hypersonic red will be for the gen 4 only.

Sorry that it wasn't possible for you to do a video walk around for the Prime. I was looking forward to it.

 

That's a fair point. I'm sure many people shopping either or both of these cars are also considering alternatives, from LEAFs to Fusion Energis. But if you survey the market, I think the Volt and Prime have to be considered each other's closest competitors. And I really think the Volt is the shadow that hangs over the Prime's value argument.

Okay, the 90 minute commute definitely puts things in a certain light, especially if there's no way to charge at work (as is quite likely for most people). It is entirely possible that this use case, especially if it includes regular weekend errands within the Prime's EV range, tilts the field to the Prime. The Volt would operate too much in hybrid mode, and its extra EV range might not matter on the weekends. If on top of that you take semi-regular road trips beyond the commuting and really like Toyotas (I know I do!) the Prime would be a better fit than a Volt. But if you read back through all that, wouldn't a Gen4 Liftback, with the extra passenger spot and bigger trunk and great MPG and lower price, be an even better overall fit? I think there's a good chance it would be - the described use case seems to have too low a percentage of EV driving to make the investment worth it.

That 5-8 passenger one's a doozy, btw. If you could get over an understandable aversion to F/C, it sounds like you want a Pacifica plug-in .

 

I have a pip and I'm not sure it would make sense to trade it I'm for a gen 4. We enjoy short ev trips all the time and I get like 54 to 56 mpg on that long drive...

 

Oh my gosh you're right - I glossed right over that! Even my bare bones little i-MiEV has a nice spring loaded cover over the J1772 port, not some lame-nice person plastic cap that just dangles there unless I replicate the fumbling exercise we see in the video to clip it to the cable. That is not okay at this price point. And yes, the CHAdeMO-shaped blank next to the J1772 really does rub salt in the wound, doesn't it? I don't want to overstate the importance of that for a dinky 8kWh battery, but it is just a tad irritating.

So back to an earlier point - if they didn't NEED to do this, then it was just unconscionably stupid. There's no room for pretentious affectations in this market segment, and "weight-saving" blather aside, that's all this is.

I wouldn't suggest that you trade it in, no. Regardless of your particulars, I was just pointing out that in most situations, a use case that favors the Prime over the Volt is just as likely to favor the Liftback even more. That might not be true for you specifically, but as you step through this it sounds like we're negotiating our way down to a slice of a slice of a niche. I'm not quite sure the Prime is sexy enough to overcome the weight of rational value analysis against it, but we'll see. While it doesn't fit my needs personally, I think it'll be fun to see that funky drooping rear glass and "kiss my backside" tail lights (we've all noticed that by now, right?) in front of me from time to time.

 

The new Volt starts under $34k with delivery. The C-max Energi starts at $31,770 without it. If the base Prime doesn't start at $30k or lower, I think it will be a tough sell. Same price as the C-max might be fine, but that is a first gen plug in. It might disappear and be replaced, but I expect Ford to address the faults of the design, while decreasing the price like GM.

That is the most important spec.

The C-max Energi is probably the most likely cross shop model for the Prime.

Riding crop to get the driver's attention?

Toyota decided to not even offer the first Prius PHEV to at least some parts of Europe, and your import taxes will likely make the Prime a tough sell there.

The Volt is the best selling PHEV out there. The PiP did do better at times, but Toyota felt it better not to commit to the model at the time.Perhaps the Prime can beat the Volt. I have my doubts as it sounds like Toyota seems to be saddling it with some of the criticisms that the first gen Volt had.

The Volt had only four seats and was expensive then because of the limits of battery technology and costs back then. To help compensate for those faults in the market, GM loaded it with features, and made it more luxuriously appointed than the typical Chevy. The second generation arrives, and its features and appointments are more in line with a typical Chevy. It now starts at a much lower price, and has a middle rear seat that works for a child seat, child, or an adult if pressed. While improving fuel economy and EV range.

The PiP was all that a Prius was with a better than aftermarket plug in ability. The Prime improves the EV side greatly. Some cargo space loss over the Prius isn't a bad compromise for that. Four seats is for how many Prius buyers use their car. Then it sounds like there won't be any price drop for the first gen, because Toyota is going for a more luxurious feel, and it looks like they studied the gen1 Volt and learned very all the wrong lessons on what people want out of a PHEV.

In short, The Prius Prime is more Prime than Prius, and I think that is going to hurt it in the market.

Officially, it's FCA, Fiat Chrysler America.

Vike's post got me to run the numbers for a 80 mile roundtrip commute with no work place charging. The Volt will use 0.64 gallons of gas on it, while the Prime will likely, assuming same MPG as the non-ECO Prius, use 1.12 gallons. The Prime will beat the Volt on those long trips. Put aside the joy of getting 50+mpg when you do have to use gas for a moment. For 600 miles without any grid juice, the Volt will use 14.3 gallons and the Prime 11.5 gallons.

The extra gas used by the Volt over those 600 miles will be saved by it over 6 days of commuting. So unless you are going on these long trips more often than, say once a month, the Volt will likely use less gasoline than the Prime over a course of a year.

By your other needs, it sounds like neither one would work for you though if your current PiP is being used to its capacity for a long trip.

My 2005 Prius had two blanks right on the dash for the unavailable EV button and manual HID level adjust. We probably should just get used to it.

 

pip 1 has the cover built into the door. no need to open the door, remove the cover, put the cover in the holder, plug the car in, remove the plug, remove the cover from the holder, put the cover back on and close the door. way too many steps, and logically, that should have been pip 1, and pip 2 should have been quicker and more efficient. just a small thing, but another case of going backward instead of forward.and merged. and ford is redesigning c max energy, no?

 

The C-max has been around in Europe in Europe as an ICE car. it could roughly be called a Focus tall wagon or mini-minivan, depending on the number of seats and whether it has sliding doors. Ford put to hybrid and PHEV duty for North America, which left it with the baggage of being a car model converted to hybrid use.

A redesign would be due for the 2018MY, or about a year after the Prime goes on sale. But it seems that isn't going to happen with Ford introducing a dedicated hybrid and PHEV for that size segment instead. No hard details about it now, but we can make some educated guesses about generals.

• The new platform will cut weight compared to the the one used for the current C-max.
• Weight and cost savings will continue for the hybrid system.
• The hybrid battery will be better packaged to reduce space loss.
• The PHEV battery will be sized for EV performance similar to the current C-max Energi for lower cost and better packaging.
• Or increase in capacity for better EV range and performance. Packaging for it should still be less clunky than the current C-max.
• Overall efficiency should improve.

I think Ford will aim for 25 mile EV range at least, but we can't even say if it will be a hatchback at this time. So {we need a shrugging shoulders emoji}

Exclusive: Ford plans new hybrid series to compete with Toyota Prius - sources| Reuters
Compact Ford Plug-In Hybrid Coming On New C2 Platform In 2018

 

Good to see they addressed that annoyance.
Once you get in single digit temps- you really need large amounts of BTU's that are very difficult for electricity to produce but easy for the ICE to produce.

 

Re: tax credits, they are non refundable so in order to get the full tax credit on a volt a married couple with no dependents would have to have more than $56,183 in taxable income after all deductions and exemptions. The full tax credit for a prius only requires $33,970 in taxable income after all deductions and exemptions. Therefore the target market Toyota is aiming at is the 33k-56k taxable income group, which happens to include the median income for USA. Relying on a bigger tax credit enlarges the risk of people expecting the tax credit and then not having enough income to qualify, so I think this was the reasoning behind only doubling the battery instead of tripling it like I was hoping for.

 

The question is.... how many willing to spend $35k car in the US median income? Especially when they should be looking for a car 10k to 15k less.

 

idk, but when i dropped 30k on my pip, it was the most expensive car i'd ever bought, over 40 years. and i can afford a tesla, but just see cars as a waste of money.
i don't know the stats, but i would thing the top of the bell curve would be around 20k, with camrys and corollas and the like in that stratosphere.

 

I believe i have read something like 28k average for 2014 or 2015.

But they are not looking at some high sales for Prime anyway.

 

no, i think they would just like to see a decent start. maybe a couple thousand a month?

 

talked to dealership today about PP coming out next year. dealership think that PP is build to not last its value in US - residual is going to suck

 

what does that mean? build to not last its value? how else can you build them? value is determined by demand. pip 1 lost a ton of value because of gas prices and competition. you can't predict the future, but whatever happens, it will be true across the board for all vehicles.

 

Prime will sell in Europe widely, they just announced it in my small eastern european country. I suspect that one of the main reasons they did >50km of EV (under NEDC) is due to legislation for government support across europe... here it will get $7.5k grant, and it will do well across various EU countries.

As much as I have read in past, a lot of surveys showed that a lot of people dont plug these PHEVs on daily basis. Knowing that, everything makes more sense since at this (battery) size and weight, they managed to keep same MPG as regular Prius plus some benefits such as increased performance (possibly?). Making it luxury Prius makes a lot of sense in that case, since those would be additional benefits over regular Prius. I would guess for a lot of buyers tech features might end up more important than EV mode.

As to the Volt, it might be best selling PHEV in USA (not in the world actually, not by any chance) but at these volumes of 15k-20k per year, thats pretty bad for dedicated vehicle.... Only reason Prime exists is because Prius exists, and Prius will go on likely to do 600k this year. Prime selling 20k or 15k in NA does not change a thing for Toyota or Prius.

I would not mind owning one if the pricing isnt too crazy after the grant. Of course, since I live in apartment building, like everyone else here (well most people anyway), there is no way for me to charge it. I wonder how much charge will solar roof bring, i would guess nowhere near enough.







Merged

yep... residuals suck because they have to basically give them away with huge discounts. Didnt P1 have some crazy $4k to $7k discounts? Again, this is why they are making it about luxury and features and not just EV.

 

in california, people bought the pip for an hov sticker. that's a loophole in the law, since many were not plugging in.
honestly, i don't see the luxury. what do you get beyond a prius? you don't get the 11" screen in the base model. how many people will care about bucket seats in the rear?

 

but people don't buy mirai for the hov sticker. does california still handing out hov sticker?

 

why do people buy mirai? i think hov stickers are up in the air right now.