What I don't like about the Prius Prime

Been mulling this over a bit, but I've stopped changing opinion for almost a day now, so wanted to share, and figured this "gripe" thread was the best place (so thanks for starting it!).

First off, for what it's worth, kudos to Toyota for keeping that Prime moniker under wraps. Perhaps I just didn't look in the right place(s), but I never saw that name before the reveal.

And heck, I'll even have a couple of another nice things to say before I'm done.

As to the car itself, it's certainly intriguing, though just how intriguing is going to depend on the price (e.g., Teslas intrigue me, but not for long). The bad news there is that many elements I saw in the walkaround scream $$$, e.g., lots of LEDs, Tesla-grade internal touchscreen, carbon fiber hatch with curvy rear glass (huh? good luck if you break that) - and of course on top of all that the 8kWh battery. Looking at the price of a loaded Liftback, I have to wonder - how far below $40k can the Prime be? But see, if the Prime costs as much as a Volt, with (arguably) less passenger capacity, barely more cargo space, half the EV range, and the sole advantage of <20% better MPG in hybrid mode, won't this be a car for Prius/Toyota loyalists only? After all, if most of your driving is beyond the Volt's EV range (the only reason you'd be sensitive to hybrid MPG), how worthwhile is a plug-in in the first place?

Before I get into further nitpicking, let me acknowledge up-front the huge positives here. 22 mi. AER is no joke (at last!). If that holds up in the EPA's relatively demanding tests, it means (along with the increased power enabling >80mph EV mode) that many Primes could go entire days without burning gas, especially if running multiple small excursions from home with time for charging in between (a model that fits a lot of days in a lot of folks' routines), or if driven to a workplace that supports/permits access to electrical outlets (L1 charging will fully charge the Prime in less than a work day). No, it's not a BEV w/RE a la Volt, but nobody expected that from the religiously anti-BEV Toyota (a whole separate topic).

Just as important for those of us in flyover country, Toyota confirmed that the Prime will be sold in all 50 states. While the PiP was always serviceable anywhere (unlike the white elephant RAV4 EV), I'd have had to go out of state (e.g, to next door AZ) to buy one. Toyota's first nationally available plug-in eliminates an important black mark from their EV credentials.

One important thing we've learned here is that while Toyota has some great engineers, they're not wizards, and a plug-in was STILL clearly not a priority for the product planners. Octupling battery capacity was bound to exact a space penalty when you also have to support an ICE w/gas tank, especially in a relatively compact chassis, so I suppose it was naive of me to expect the batteries to fit under the seat and in the spare tire area, leaving a trunk similar to the Two/Three Liftbacks (one of the few virtues of the PiP was its uncompromised passenger/cargo space, after all). But things turned out much worse than I'd imagined, especially given how much time Toyota had to design the Gen4 knowing full well the line would include a plug-in. How did we wind up with a trunk floor raised by inches (albeit with a small portion of that available as auxiliary storage, judging from the video) PLUS a significant intrusion into the passenger compartment, costing us the center seating position? I'll be interested to see how it is to sit back there, though the Prius has always offered a lot more rear legroom than the Volt, which will mitigate that "hemmed in" feeling. Regardless, it's downright weird that at least on paper, the new Volt's good for one more passenger than the Prius Prime (and yeah, I know, that's not exactly true unless we're talking about children).

Comments here suggesting that the center console was less about needed space for components and more about deliberately eliminating the 5th passenger don't help - that just takes the back seat configuration from unfortunate to idiotic. Has Toyota drunk so much of its own hydrogen kool-aid that they really think the market was desperate to have a Mirai for the masses? (e.g., "I can't buy a hydrogen car, but at least I can have just four seats like one!").

Putting it all together, the Prime has wound up being a lot less competitive than I expected. The AER is about what rumors had suggested (20-25 mi.), but the space compromises are surprising and unwelcome - this is objectively less car than a Prius Liftback, somewhat the way a Volt is less car than a Cruze. If the Prime shows up for much over $35k (and how WON'T it?), it's going to have an awfully small niche - either a Volt or a Prius Liftback would be a better fit for most buyers, depending on specific preferences. The Liftback looks especially strong given how well Gen4 fuel economy is holding up in real world experience, not to mention its much greater utility (and I must say again this was a surprisingly disappointing development for the Prime). Indeed, if Ford can get the bugs out, even a C-MAX Energi (starting under $32k) seems kinda competitive.

I was a little ambivalent about buying our Gen4 Liftback before having a chance to evaluate the Gen2 PiP, but multiple factors made it not worth the delay (not least of them being that I already had a BEV). Now that I've seen the Prime, I feel a lot better about "missing" it - turns out I'm not missing anything I care about. Best wishes to the small slice of buyers for whom the Prime is a good fit - it's kinda neat in its way, and unlike other Gen4 buyers, you likely won't be seeing copies of your car at every intersection. But for Toyota, I think this is a big swing and a miss.

 

Well said, Vike. I agree with pretty much everything you wrote.

I have also been waiting for this car, and I share the same reaction as you. I have always loved the versatility of the Prius, and I still have a hard time with the 4 seats. The raised trunk is a bit surprising, but I understand why, and could live with that (as it sounds like it is still a bit bigger than my gen 2?). I also find the lack of rear wiper another minor disappointment, but I guess that's the weird rear window/hatch.

However, I am starting to think a used PIP might be better option for me right now (there is one I have my eye on)... Both on overall fit and the budget (we recently added a Leaf to our driveway ), even if I would be sacrificing a couple new toys, like that pretty 11" display...

 

What BEV do you have?










merged

Used Certified PiP isn't too bad. Now that PiP is actually a different car than PP. You get more...trunk space and a 5th seat. Plus you can get it cheaper and it has some luxury features like seatwarmers. In fact the PiP seems more of a practical car for good economy (you'll enjoy like 3-4% default better MPG than the regular Gen 3). I feel like the Prius was always practical and eco friendly.

The Gen 4 loses a bit of that with the glove compartment issues and questionable removal of interior space (no floating bridge and a wireless charger in the center? What?) And it looks like the PP does so even worse (can't have the trunk flush with the back seats folded? No 5th seat option? What?) I like the improvements in the Electric Motor and power, and can't wait to hear about regular HV MPG, but...it's also now luxurious. Great. It doesn't feel true to the Prius name anymore. Gen 4 was a welcome improvement though in looks, the inside could be better.

What's with that steering wheel?

 

A Mitsubishi i-MiEV - I ordered one of the first sold in my town. It turned out it was also one of the last .

It's a topic in itself, but the bottom line is that rationally speaking, if I'd known then what I know now, I would have spent the extra $7k or so for a LEAF, the main problem being the likelihood of getting totaled out for only $8k if I get in anything much beyond a minor fender bender (the LEAF has a similar "replacement value" problem, but not nearly as bad). It's a loss I can afford, but not a risk I would have chosen to undertake.

Thing is, I'm really glad I didn't know that then, because I still prefer the i-MiEV itself and its unique driving experience (Consumer Reports be damned). Picture scooting around town in a fully-enclosed street-legal luxury electric golf cart that does 80 mph. It's a pure hoot, in ways that the more mainstream LEAF just isn't. But eh, that's just me . . .

 

as a gen 1 pip owner, i have to weigh the loss of space vs a myriad of improvements, many of which are already in the gen4 lift back. doubling the range is huge. i only need 15-16, but 22 is not a detriment. i agree though, price will mean everything. i think i would be willing to pay around 25k for the base, after tax incentives.

 

Since an 8kWh pack means just over $4k in credits ($2500 + 4 x $417 ; yeah, don't ask), it sounds like you'd like your Prius Prime for < $30k.

As a former boss of mine was fond of saying, "There are two chances of that [slim and none] - and I heard Slim just left town."

 

well, i'm not ready to guess. keep in mind, there are 3 packages. the base gets 7" screen only, so, we'll see what toyota wants to do. sell, or have trophy car?

the base gen 1 pip was 33k. most people got 500 off in the very beginning. so 30k after the fed rebate. at the time, with very little competition, it wasn't a bad deal, considering it was package 3 equipped plus some extra's. but times are different now, gas is lower, more competition. otoh, there are a lot of improvements.

 

Understood, so we can lose the Softex seats & interior trim, 11.6" touchscreen, TSS-P, HUD, Sat/HD Radio, and maybe Nav? But we still have the 8kWh battery, banks of LEDs, and a carbon fiber rear hatch with bizarro glass. I'm not ready to make a firm prediction either, but I am VERY confident this will start over $30k. I was kinda thinking if they could just beat the Volt on after-tax pricing the car would be viable, but given that you're a PiP owner and not willing to pay anywhere near that, I might have to re-evaluate.

 

my arm can be twisted.

 

2016 fully loaded Volt = MSRP $44605 - GM-Volt.com

 

but they get what, $7500. off? so 37k net, puts loaded pip at 41? same price as gen 1, before 2500 off. with a ton of improvements.

 

I don't think you missed anything...
The Prime is tremendously underwhelming at best

Even if it today's Prime came out in 2012 as competition to the 2012 Gen 1 Volt it would have been bested back then by the Volt.
All-in-all it now seems GM's upgrades to the 2nd Gen Volt were pretty impressive.
+ added a additional rear seat
+ Increased EV range from 38 to 53mi
+ All EV up to 98mph
+ Qualifies for up to $7,500 Fed Tax Credit
+ $34k Price before the $7,500 Fed Tax Credit!


I just can't see the Prime selling any better than the PIP- which was a poor seller at best.



The good news for Toyota... the new RAV4 Hybrid is getting excellent reviews!

 

true for peole who need/want 50 eve miles, but not for everybody. it's going to be fun to watch, 22 miles is more than enough ev for me, and so it will be for many people. for those that need more, that's why we have options.

pip 1 was actually a pretty good seller, for 15 states. now we get 50.

agree, pricing will be crucial, if toyota is interested in competing. and they will have to overcome the $3,500. tax advantage for volt.

 

Excuse me, but don't be a goof. We're talking about the base price for a Prius Prime compared to a comparable Volt, not a "fully loaded" Volt. So let's stick with apples to apples, shall we? Base price on the 2016 Volt LT is $33,220 (plus dest. charges, presumably).

Let's not delude ourselves, folks. The Prime would have to be priced at an unreasonably low premium over the Liftback to offer a competitive value with other plug-ins already out there. Add in compromised cargo and passenger space, and I just don't see many folks hitting the BUY button.

I hope I'm wrong - I'll be pleased to see them on the road.

 

As a former (2012) PIP owner and a current 2014 Volt owner.....
Keep in mind that the quoted EV range is generally de-rated by 25-30% for cold weather operations.
That "22mi" EV range is more likely to be closer to 16mi once summer's over.

 

To quote a previous poster, these competitive expectations are slim to none.

 

that fits with my 25k net on the pip.

 

agreed. not summer though, but the dead of winter. there is some loss as temps drop below 60 or so. and now, with the new heat pump, we'll be trying not to fire the ice even more often in winter, using even more battery. not true for the volt?

 

Not much EV range loss from the published spec of 38 EV mi until you start getting in the 30's outside.

These EV's love warmer temps- noticed it in both the PIP and the Volt.
My summer range in the Volt is +50 EV mi...I hit 52 EV mi a few times during 80+ deg days over the past two summers. As soon as the temps get back into the 70's... my EV range drops back to the low/mid 40's.

We don't know much about the Prime yet- but on the Volt the user can set-and-forget the ERDTT (Engine Running Due to Temperature) setpoint to 14F which is a really nice option (the Volt can produce up to 6.6Kw of electrical cabin heat with no ICE running). I remember the temps being just slightly below 32F and the PIP's ICE would fire up- even on short 2 mi trips for Sunday bagels.
The Prime has a heatpump, so hopefully they have addressed the ERDDT issue?

 

That would have been me