2nd Gen Prius Plug-In already in the works? September 2016 release noted

I actually like the Toyota concept of smaller battery but 20-25 miles would be good.

 

Also, let's not forget that numbers don't mean the same thing to different audiences.

The best example of this was the EPA measurements for MPG prior to the 2007 change. In the past, those numbers simply served as a basis of comparison. Standardized criteria was introduced for the sake of making comparisons amongst the wide array of vehicle choices easier. That's it. Those numbers did *NOT* represent a real-world expectation.

But then when hybrids came along and the market started to give a crap about actual MPG results, the testing changed. The measurement approach changed to reflect the market shift. That's a reality most people are totally unaware of.

Toyota's approach to delivering a MPG boost wasn't understood by the typical consumer, following rollout. Prior to that, purpose seemed obvious. But traditional greenwashing and new efforts to undermine, along with continued battery technology improvement, resulted in a pause. The market was actively readjusting, much of it having to do with perception.

People are changing their view of plugging in. People are seeing the hybrid market expand & mature. People are finally paying attention to the dependency our economy has on oil. The audience has changed.

 

i think it's difficult to get people to plug in for better efficiency. mentally, plugging in means ev driving, even for most of us old hands.

it's like giving someone a present, and telling them they can't unwrap it. it's too tempting. you read very little here from pip owners, plugging in as much as possible, but only driving in hv mode.

 

No matter what the battery size, I think it needs to stay in EV mode even with some hard acceleration and a little more speed.
I'm not sure the Prius IV platform can handle such a power delivery. The battery cells would need to be cooled more effectively too.
A doubling of the existing range (10 miles driving without babying the battery) would not be enticing to me. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't take the bait unless the range were quoted as 30-35 miles and allowed EV driving at speeds up to 65 mph.

Now if you tell me to cost is only $2000 more for the PiP over the non-PiP version - and I'm really buying a regular Prius with this not too expensive add-on, then that is a different story. On our 2012 PiP, we have ~1/3 of our miles from electric mode - grocery store runs and other short trips - quite a bit from a tiny battery. So it will be very interesting to see what decision Toyota came to.

 

Then those in which the concept of using grid power to improve gasoline efficiency more than likely had researched the after market plug in kits. Perhaps unfairly, their expectations for Toyota's factory version were not met.

Some of the talk leading up to its release was the expectation that the PHEV would simply be a factory option add on. But that isn't what happened.

Unfortunately for the gen1 Prius PHEV, the Volt beat it to market, and it has become the benchmark most measure other PHEVs by.

 

Smaller batteries simply cannot deliver as much power. An increase in range has the potential to offer that. That's why there was so much resistence amongst Volt enthusiasts in the past, knowing a reduced pack size for increased cost-appeal would lower peak power.

30-35 miles (battery, case, controller, etc, along with the charger) for only $2,000 is just plain not realistic, especially considering how much other package options cost.

As for speed, the rumor is that top EV speed will be bumped from 100 to 110 km/h. (That's 68.3 mph.)




Merged.

Really? In what respect? Other automakers aren't willing to make the size sacrifice based on consumer feedback. They also aren't pushing range as far (with the exception of BMW, but they are a luxury brand).

 

Speed sound good. $2000 is a number I pulled out of the air where I wouldn't have to do anything thinking to go for the PiP. What number would you say is realistic? $4000? If the battery goes up to 10 KWh, that might only be $1500-$2000 in cost. Beefier motor and power delivery and cooling system might be the same amount. So an extra $5-6000?

 

actually, most people consider the volt an extended range ev, rather than a phev. they like it because most of their day to day driving is ev, but they have the engine if needed. that hasn't proven to be great for sales, so it will be interesting to see what toyota does.

 

EREV is a subset of a PHEV.
Volt sells better than the Energi's, and also better than the Prius PHEV many months. The Leaf tends to do better, and Tesla usually does.

But the sales isn't why I think the Prius PHEV suffered for coming to market to later. You'll be playing catch up if you do, but more importantly, the Volt going on sale first, made GM's definition of what a plug in hybrid is be the first that the public heard.

Let's go back to the early days of hybrids. The first was the Prius and Insight. They both declared the hybrid as an efficient fuel miser. So much so that the first power hybrid, the gen1 Accord, was treated with disdain. If the first hybrids from Toyota had been an MR2 or Supra instead of the Prius, don't you think it would have pushed the perception hybrids a different way back then?

 

You can add more range by taking mpg from HV (4 mpg); Compare Side-by-Side

Or you can add just enough (15-20 imo) to keep current Gen 4 mpg. Zojja posted: 2016 Prius - let's hear from buyers | Page 32 | PriusChat

 

as john says, toyota wants to compete with the big boys, not a small subset of vehicles. the car of the future, has to be practical and desirable. sales vs other subset vehicles are nearly meaningless. that being said, i have no idea what their thoughts are on the next pip. just because i want it, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

 

That "public" is quite different from the upcoming market. Not being the same audience means prior happenings don't stand.

That's common among "early adopter" rollouts. Later buyers have no association to that past.

 

Review: Toyota Prius hybrid is a marvel of green technology - The Scotsman

 

The demand for the PiP was there, but the cars were not. Toyota just wouldn't build them. Monthly Plug-In Sales Scorecard

 

What's the point of building an older generation for early-adopters when a new one for a wider audience is on the way?

Ask the typical consumers for information about Volt. All they know is that it was first. Many cannot correctly tell you how the system actually operates. They are unaware physical size and battery attributes as well.

Toyota saved the opportunity to start fresh. 2/3 of the states still haven't seen them yet and far more tax-credits are available than with the other automakers. They still have the opportunity to be the first to offer wireless charging too, which is proving to be a major convenience for cell-phones.

Look at it this way, a similar situation existed 13 years ago. Availability of the Classic model Prius was quite limited. We'll never know the true demand as a result of Toyota sticking to a strict quota; however, we do know that sales of the Iconic model which followed were very strong.

Also, keep in mind how information from a previous generation become tools of greenwashing. Reports will be shared without context, leading people to believe what's written about is all that has ever been available. It's very easy for an ordinary consumer to be unaware of generational detail.

 

I have stated in the past that the Prius PHEV could have easily sold more than the Volt if the national roll out had happened. It would appear that not being the hit on roll out(Toyota had high sales projections like the GM did for the Volt) that they expected, Toyota just lost interest in the car, and settled on it being just a compliance car for CARB mandates.

The slow and steady sales growth that happened with the first Prius isn't going to work as well. Times are simply different. On introduction, no one knew what a hybrid was, gas was cheap, and the only Prius competitor had only two seats. On introduction of the PPI, the Volt and Leaf were already available nationwide, and the early adopters had been asking for a plug since the gen2. The general public needed to be educated on what a PHEV is though. The word of mouth that worked for the first Prius isn't going to work as well when their are competitors with a different vision for the plug in hybrid.

The Prius Plug In is better than the DIY kits that were available for the Prius in most ways. It should have been a cheaper option though, but Toyota wrapped it up with extra features to the point that they called it a separate model. I think that is where people might have started to expect more from the PPI. If it had been a simple option for the Prius, like another engine in other models, the comparison to the aftermarket kits would have been the natural one. A new 'model' with bells and whistles not available on the regular Prius, and comparisons to other new PHEV models becomes the natural one.

 

Toyota did what it could to avoid the fallout from Volt and Leaf. The gen-1 offerings had a lot of greenwashing, as well as a few actual issues, to deal with. Why in the world would Toyota want to jump into that mess?

Patiently waiting to follow gen-2 rollouts and adjust to the market shift accordingly is a wise business choice.

 

Sure, following is always safer than leading.
I get ticked off, because Toyota USED to be a leader.

As previously said though, Toyota allowed others to define the plugin car. Then they followed with something that didn't fit that definition. If they had been first, then they would have defined the plugin.

So while following is safer, it may not be more wise.

 

Leadership is the ability to get ordinary people to change.

How do you define leadership?

Merged.

It's interesting to watch the perception change. Some would call it a double-standard. Some would call it hypocritical. Others would call it damage-control. I'm not sure what to call it yet... perhaps, back-pedaling. For over 5 years, there was a fierce campaign to differentiate Volt as a EREV and to patiently wait for gen-2 rollout. Now, there's an endeavor to identify Volt as a PHEV instead and to disparage Toyota for having been patient.

Reality is, ordinary consumers haven't been paying attention anyway. All they know is the basics... there are plug-in vehicles available and they are not cost-competitive yet. That's pretty much it, so far.

This is like trying to explain to someone the benefits of a smart-phone. They would have no clue how they would actually use one, until exposed directly to one. Even then, that's no guarantee by any means of a purchase. The price of that is trivial compared to a vehicle purchase, as is the expected service life.

No amount of "first" or "leader" claims will change that either. It's the nature of how ordinary consumers react to change. In other words, achieving mainstreams sales is far more difficult than just appealing to enthusiasts.

 

"First" is a rather objective thing. "Leader" can be a bit more subjective, although in industry it is usually tied to being first to bring innovation to market.

As for requiring a large scale change in the market, that takes time.
Plugin vehicles will certainly reach levels of mass market sales (60,000/year by your definition as I recall) than FCVs will.

In my opinion, leadership is equated more closely to taking a chance and striving to reach the mass market than it is waiting for others to do the hard work and then jumping in once the path has been cleared.

Toyota is a hybrid leader, Ford is not.