Quantitative Results of Grid Charge/Discharge

Because it's bootleg. You can go legit and run on whatever you want for what? About $1,000? I think that's a subscription too.

Torque Pro will probably get you there, just a little more difficult. You'll need a display screen that shows SoC, battery current, min block voltage, min block #, max block voltage and max block #. You'll also need to flag them so they get captured. Also, flag all the 14 block voltages for capture, but don't display them.

Torque only works on Android. If you're an iphone user, you need to get a friend with an android phone or use an android tablet.

Steve

 

I'm kinda losing patience with you.

It is as you describe, but it also involves a human, trying to make a living, putting it together. It also requires the expertise to know how to do it, which you clearly don't have, but you're willing to have us spoon feed it to you, so you can avoid spending a little more money in an effort to avoid a $3,000 repair.

"I can't see paying for that, so I'll do it myself. Now, please, everybody... tell me how to do it."

You need to size your wire/clips according to the anticipated current. You need to anticipate the current based on the load and the power source.

You have Google. Educate yourself and answer the two questions above.

Now, on to your legitimate question: I believe the issues regarding Techstream/virus are unfounded. MUCH anti-virus reports cracks and hacks as viruses. IMHO, if the virus does not intend to do harm or propagate itself, I don't regard it as a virus. I have no issues with a cracked Techstream on my Win7-32 laptop. I use it for a LOT of other things.

 

You're not going to get a new battery that guarantees you have a fix for $1500. DIY will still cost you >$2500 for toyota new.

I'm sure you see me as rude. I see you as rude. It's to be expected. I can't MAKE you feel stupid (I'm in AZ, you're in UT, I have no power over you at that distance). Those are your own insecurities. You should consider if you have the temperament for DIY or if you should own a car with additional failure points at all as you can't afford the repairs because $50 is a break-the-bank issue.

Perhaps the materials you state are not worth $50, but a working system is. Jeff has the knowledge to put something together that works. If he puts $10 of materials into an item and spends time putting it together, does it really not have a value beyond its components? Is the work YOU do so valueless?

How much of your time have you "wasted" doing research and buying materials? What's that time worth to you?

I think the real issue is that you're pissy you didn't get an easy fix. You feel like you've wasted your money, and you're reacting accordingly. DIY requires patience and diligence.

You're not just asking for help. You're saying something that will fix your problem has no value beyond the sum of its parts. That's pretty rude. If I'm rude for calling you out on it, so be it.

Frankly, had you framed it in a respectful way, I would have been happy to make suggestions.

Concerning use of the Win8 laptop, if it's 32 bit, it may be fine. If it's 64 bit, make sure you follow the instructions JeffD linked.

Good luck,

Steve

 

2006, 130k miles

I was contacted by a local PC member to help him install his HA Prolong grid charger on his 2006 w/130k he acquired in Dec, 2015. I agreed for a small fee, but on condition he allow me to do the entire process myself and conduct before and after Techstream tests as well as follow-on testing (next is scheduled for end of April prior to it being parked for 4-5 months).

The results were very favorable.

Short version:
Before: 38.5% SoH, 0.4V max deltaV
After: 76.5% SoH, 0.2V max deltaV

Nearly a doubling of usable capacity @ 15A test load. He left my house with 3 bars on the display following the discharge test. His drive home was about 45 miles. He averaged 56mpg on the drive home. He has never seen mileage that high in the 3 months of ownership.

Long Version:

Prior tests have been plagued with inconsistencies due to my efforts to produce a very high load. While successful in that regard, consistency has been out the window. Nonetheless, even those results are favorable given that higher current tests were shown to have notably higher capacity. I have devised a new test using the A/C compressor as the primary load. It is possible to consistently generate loads of about 15A for before and after comparison purposes. I have added a link in my sig concerning the test. It is also intended to permit a user to conduct this test with no equipment beyond a timekeeping device.

This was my first HA install. The package is well put together and is clearly "drop in". Installing the fan controller is a little involved, but it went very smoothly.

Since I only had 48 hours to complete the test, I deviated from the Prolong process. I did this because I've done it so many times before with favorable results. Process as follows:

1. Force charge to 80% SoC
2. Grid charge to peak voltage of 240V and a pull back to 236V. 14 hours total grid charge time.
3. 2X 200W bulbs to 180V (missed 185V target) - only 1 hr 40 minutes = 2300mAh extracted.
4. 2X 25W bulbs to 60V (missed 84V target due to the need for sleep) - about 18 hours - about 2600mAh extracted.
5. Grid charge for 4 hours
6. Idle charge until it terminated
7. Force charge to 80% Soc
8. Grid charge for 3 hours.

I opted to shorten the grid charge as the initial deltaV of 0.2-0.4V did not suggest severe imbalance. The abrupt change in SoC slope suggested severe voltage depression. The force charge to 80% SoC reduced the need for an extended "balancing" charge.

Step 5 was to bring the pack into a safe range for use in the car. Steps 6 & 7 were used to expedite the recharge process. Step 8 was because I took the kids to see Zootopia, so why not?

Following the grid charge, I conducted a timed-only discharge, which took 6 minutes, 53 seconds. I let the car cool and finished buttoning everything back up. Here are the before and after test results:

View attachment 107049

View attachment 107050

In each chart, I have included a box showing a summary of the results, AND a comparison to the timed-only test linked in my signature.

For some reason, in the AFTER test, the ICE fired and shutdown immediately. The spike is noted in the chart. I do not believe it influenced the test significantly. The duration was minimal, and the 50A spike to spin the ICE vs. the -10A charge it provided is clearly a net loss.

In both charts, I have highlighted the region between 55 and 65% SoC. This range is what I typically see in my car in most normal driving. In the BEFORE chart, you can see this region encompasses a good chunk of the SoC line with a steeper slope. To the car, this registers as a more extreme voltage drop for a given current and thus limits usable capacity in the lower SoC ranges.

Noting the same region in the AFTER chart, 55-65% SoC encompasses only the constant and shallow slope portion of the SoC line. The abrupt drop off is greatly reduced and occurs at a much lower SoC. Additional deep discharges should smooth this out.

This post will be updated on or about 4/28 with follow-on test results.

Steve

 

DISCLAIMER:

At the time of this post (4/4/2016), I have become an authorized installer for Hybrid Automotive. I am eligible to receive a wholesaler's discount on their products. I am not paid by Hybrid Automotive in any way, and any financial interest is limited to the wholesaler's discount.

I will continue to promote and endorse HA, not because of the discount, but because I believe in the process.

Thanks,

Steve

 

Yes. In"D", stand on brake to prevent foward motion, full throttle.

IMHO, very little in most cases with the Prius. Grid charging alone will do nothing to restore the capacity lost due to voltage depression. If multiple cells are lagging, you may see benefit from restoring all cells to 100% SoC, but you will still suffer from reduced capacity. Both cars in this thread had negligible balance issues as demonstrated by their relatively tight deltaV. DeltaV didn't start increasing significantly until SoC slope hit the steeper portion of the curve.

I have personally discharged whole Prius packs to single digit voltages with 2X 25W bulbs in series. I have never observed a negative effect as a result; however, if you have a marginal cell/module, that level of discharge could take it out due to extended polarity reversal.

If your battery appears to be otherwise healthy (no lights, no major symptoms beyond slight mpg drop), a gentle discharge to 134V (0.8V/cell) will restore a significant amount of lost capacity by reducing voltage depression. Even discharging to higher voltages like 168V or 185V will provide measurable benefit, but it will not be as pronounced as the two tests to 0.5V/cell demonstrate.

If time, opportunity and patience allow, I will attempt to demonstrate the effects of progressively deeper discharges in the future. I do not see an opportunity to do that on the horizon.

I can't comment on the scangauge issue.

 

Try the discharge test in my signature on a day where the temp is over 70°F. The prescribed test can give you a good idea of your battery's state of health. All you need is something to measure the elapsed time. Packs can perform surprisingly well down the the 40% level. Below that, problems are much closer on the horizon.

 

Some things:

• 5:30 is 5.5; 5.5*.095= 52.3% (splitting hairs)
• Techstream has very consistently reported 14.5A at the start and increasing to 16.5A near the end of the test on two different vehicles, multiple tests on each.
• I suspect there is some error in the scangauge. If not, then the computation is high and your SoH is even lower. If it was accurate, you are closer to 46% SoH. Additionally, rather than 80-40% that I measured during my Techstream monitored tests, you used 4% more total capacity from 82-38%, so this would drive the state of health even lower by another few %.
• Potential accuracy issues aside, I believe a conclusion that your battery is measurably deteriorated is valid.
• Based on my experience, I would expect you would see measurable gains following a "recondition" via the Prolong process.
• Again, based on experience, with a discharge to 0.5V/cell, you would likely see an approximate 50% improvement. More conservative discharges would also show gains, but I can't hypothesize based on experience.

Steve

 

I haven't made deliberate measurements, but standard low beams seem to pull 0.5-1A when I've been playing with it during Techstream measurements. It's not a lot, but every little bit helps.