Mirai gets 67 MPGe - official

when it comes to master and servant, i always presumed carb were the lackeys of the fuel & automobile industry in large part. If true, it could be that the 'want' came from the opposite direction - meaning the fossil fuel & auto industry like hydrogen - and so carb supports it. You gotta believe the fossil fuel industry hates the supply & demand dynamics of natural gas - how cheap it sells. Just think if 10% of all cars were hydrogen - and were using that natural gas supply up .... how much easier it would be to get the price hiked back up quicker.
Naw - they would never do that

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I think it is more of the Mexican standoff group racketeering; think congress, lobbying and industry symbiosis.

 

My problem with toyota's talking points is sure, that may be true, but its way in the future. In the mean time they out of the same spokes idiots claim bevs and phevs run on coal. How about applying the same standards.

In my opion make a prediction 10 years out. Don't say hydrogen will be cheap because its made with cheap natural gas, then say its clean because it will be renewable, then add that phevs won't charge their batteries and if they do it will be with coal (Lexus last year). Just so many bizzare extra rules. FCV should get extra fast refueling credits because that's what people want fast refueling with natural gas based cheap hydrogen, its like gasoline. While phevs should get no zev credits because they refill fast on fossil fuel (gas). Its just so dishonest.

FCV can be clean. No problem wtih that from me. They can't be clean and use cheap fossil fuel based hydrogen, while claiming phevs are dirty for using natural gas based electricity and gosh gasoline.

Oh hydrogen fuel cells are worse than that. In states like conneticut they have passed laws saying natural gas hydrogen is renewable because fuel cells are so efficient.

But Coal is dropping, we aren't adding it for more plug-ins to the US grid. The plug-in is coal that Lexus just spouted is wrong. The nissan all plug-ins are zero emissions equally wrong. Why would a grid tied renewable for hydrogen be green, while a grid tied renewable for a plug-in mean that not only you are charged with your local grid, but the national grid if its worse. Its just crazy.

One of the bars by me runs a conience van to move supplies and take home some drunk patrons. Its a diesel. Its renewable. I like it even though it puts out a lot more tailpipe emissions than my prius. The local eco store, trades recycled goods to some bars and reastaurants and recycles their cooking grease and oil. It isn't 100% renewable as they add things, but its close.

CARB and CEC are members of the California Fuel Cell Partnership. The old head of CARB that changed the rules, ran the lobby. Yes automakers are also part of that lobby, but CARB is probably in control. Ford, GM, BMW, Tesla all don't like it now. Back when they originally went hydrogen Ford, GM, Mercedes, Toyota, and Honda were all pro hydrogen, but they made the rules anti-hydrid too. I don't think toyota was happy about little zev credit for their prius.

 

I see your skepticism, but they do run on coal and natural gas. Even if you have 50% of energy coming from renewables, unless new is built they are all fixed, any increased load (BEV, PHEV) will be coming from plants not running at high capacity. And as is most of peak demand comes from fossils.

With respect to 10 years, I doubt unless CARB mandates that you can't sell gas unless you sell hydrogen too.

 

Why completely ignore plug in hybrids? They can be zero emission for the majority of daily driving, and in the time scales and break throughs needed for hydrogen FCEV to go nationwide, the fuel for the ICE can be carbon neutral with most of the other emissions cleaned up.

I can see FCEVs working in the future. I just don't see them using hydrogen for a fuel. Room temperature liquid fuels just have too many advantages over gaseous ones, and several over batteries. We are already working on renewable replacements for the fossil fuel based ones.

The home fuel cells that reform natural gas on site aren't cheap, and are a fridge sized unit sitting outside. They won't get cheaper or smaller adding a compressor and tank for fueling a hydrogen car. Artwork from Honda had such systems the size of the car, sitting in the home's yard.And now your home is using natural gas for everything. Which can be an improvement in some coal heavy areas, but not if your grid mix includes natural gas, nuclear and renewables.

Photolyzer systems for the home, making hydrogen from water, may come about. They will have the cost the fuel cell still. The heat supplied by the NG unit mostly comes from the refroming of the natural gas, so direct heat production will less. The efficiency of making hydrogen, and then feeding it to the fuel cell for electric is lower than solar panels. It might be better than using a battery bank at night, but going grid free should only done when the grid simply isn't available.

While a plug in with a range extender of some type will likely be the optimum choice for many, the technology isn't there for them to work for the majority of people in the near term. Look at midsize hybrid sedans. How many negative comments have there been about them losing cargo space and flexibility or the spare tire? A PHV requires an even greater compromise to achieve ZEV operation for the majority of the time at this point.

The gen2 Volt shows that they are improving, but even with its gains in space and efficiency, it still won't work as the main car for a family with children. Packaging requirements probably makes battery advances more important to PHVs than BEVs.

That is incredibly cheap. They were $100k not too long ago. Could the $16k be how much the cost has come down.

Nuclear has issues, but may be necessary if the goal is going carbon free on electric production. Ideally, it would only be used where there is no other option, be 'micro' size, and use thorium with some reprocess nuclear waste. Running some just to 'use up' the waste we already have may not be a bad idea.

TLDR; the methane hydro plants release isn't made by the plant. It was put into the water by already existing biological processes. It may not have gotten to the atmosphere without going through a turbine, but it would have likely gotten there as CO2. It's an area of the planet biome's natural carbon and nitrogen cycles overlap.

A person doesn't need a PV system to claim that. They just have to buy the RECs to cover the electric for the BEV, like companies claiming green cred for their electric already do. According to some, if the home PV doesn't have the right paper work, it's generated power can't be claimed as carbon free.

Personally, I don't care is a BEV driver claims being CO2 free or if their PV panel has the right paper work. If they are grid tied, and their PV system works, they are reducing society's carbon emissions by a tiny bit. get more home PV out there, and it adds up.

Plugging a car into a socket at least gives the owner the option to pursue ways of reducing the carbon emissions for the car. With hydrogen, they are at the mercy of whatever the station has. I would rather not have more tar sand oil being used for the gasoline around here, but it is happening, and I have no way of knowing which stations are using more of it. The best I got is that the gasoline I buy may have up to 10% ethanol in it. Same deal with hydrogen stations. California is mandating 30% or so in renewable, but that doesn't tell a person if their local hydrogen station is one producing renewable or one using NG sourced hydrogen.

Renewable home hydrogen production may move out of the lab. DIY is even possible right now, but I think home ethanol or biodiesel production is more in reach for most at this time.

The Japanese government, and most of their car companies wanted it. Getting the cars sold outside Japan just makes their primary goal cheaper.






Merged.

True.
A home and plug in owner can, in most areas, add PV or even wind to defray the extra fossil fuel electric their BEV now uses.
Even without the plug in, anyone can take those steps. With an non-plug in or FCEV, its fuel fossil fuel portion is just tied to whatever the station has.

 

First 1,175 miles, I'm at 65.66 indicated average MPGe which included some spirited driving, so I concur with the EPA ;-)

 

quick, someone tell USB that this car is barely more efficient than the prius and runs on dirty coal…

 

USBSeawolf (Our best Mirai fan) has not seemed to chime in yet to OldnSlow's posts.
He will be excited, I must assume.

 

very cool I guestimated 65 mpge way before the official numbers were released based on other toyota statements and the clarity. Have from with it. No reason to hypermile a mirai.

I think we have told USB this in the past. The dirty coal is not in california, that will be used if toyota's plan for japan or a nationwide US roll out happens. In california today, all the Toyota approved stations are powered by natural gas. Others are planned for solar, wind,, and biogas, but these are behind schedule.

 

He should have more spare time now that his daily commute is made by Public Transportation......

 

I wonder where electricty for most of the country comes from?

 

Compare Side-by-Side

 

No need to wonder we can ask the eia, the various grids, and ucs.

In california we find hydrogen for cars in available stations that qualify for toyota's quick fill comes from smr. That puts the mirai at a very good 178 g/mi. Slightly better than the prius eco at 190 g/mi, YMMV California promises to build renewable hydrogen, but has failed to do it yet at any retail station. I say wait and see, in 3 years a mirai may produce as little ghg as a volt, but promises don't get kept when it comes to infrastructure and cars.

The electricity in california where over 40% of the plug-ins are was 6.4% coal, 44.5% natural gas, 8.5% nuclear, 15% unspecified imports(should be natural gas or reneweble with recs stripped) and 25.6% large hydro and renewable. A volt will produce about 160 /mi, a tesla model S 90d 140 g/mi. The grid is getting cleaner.

For the country 39% was coal in 2014. Texas was down to 29% in 2015 The grid is getting cleaned up much faster than those coal predictors were promising. The states where plug-ins don't sell well also seem to be states that have a lot of coal. You may be able to guess why, but pretending plug-ins will be distributed equally across the grid is clearly wrong as is the idea that renewable nationwide hydrogen is even planned in the US. We have a video that quotes a venture capitalist saying plug-ins run mostly on coal. Now that you know the figures, you know that is completely false. A large percentage of buyers build solar or buy wind, something not counted int this, that makes them even less ghg intense. If you choose hydrogen, you never can get as low as plug-ins but YMMV.

 

You guys seem to be doing your best to derail this thread.
Their are lots of threads where posts such as yours are answered or debunked.

 

Under state regulations, at least ~30% (33?) of the hydrogen must be from renewable low carbon sources when dispensed from a hydrogen station that received state subsidies. I believe the actual estimate was initially for about 45% renewable averaged across all of the regulated stations.

Meanwhile, state electricity is not far behind and EVs are generally more efficient. State electricity is now about 25% renewable and that doesn't include nuclear or the 10% large hydro dam component. The target for 2020 is 33% renewable grid and 50% renewable by 2030.

 

problem is that none of these state-funded stations are open yet, and Toyota is partially filling Mirais with portable fueling stations/trucks which are definitely not renewable.

my inefficient B-class is more environmentally friendly than any FCV on the road today (as well as the Prius) and will continue to get cleaner with time. my post was a jab at USB who loves to trot out bogus stats on how EVs are supposedly dirty but FCVs are the future because they are clean and run on rainbows. the reality, as we see with real-life data, is far from that.



Merged.

okay i'll bite. where i live (which is the only thing that matters since i'm the one driving the car):
Prius PHV is total 200 g/mile
B-Class is total 160 g/mile
Prius IV Eco is total 190 g/mile

But the reality is that I never charge from the grid, and instead charge through my employer, who provides me with 100% renewable power. So I guess, then, the numbers are more like this…

Prius PHV is total <200 g/mile
B-Class is total 0 g/mile
Prius IV Eco is total 190 g/mile

What do the Mirai total emissions look like?

 

I don't know what you mean by partially filling. OldNSlow reports very fast total H2 fill-ups to the full driving range of the Mirai. Whatever Toyota is doing is good, it seems to prove the concept.

 

OldNSlow is not using Toyota's mobile fill stations, he is using the permanent ones.

Toyota's temp solution will give you a half fill, per Toyota.
OldNSlow, have you seen any of these Toyota mobile stations?
I'm guessing not since you have a number of stations in your area, but thought I would ask.

 

Do they have some of the permanent stations in SF or north in case I make an inspection trip?

 

The renewable accounting for hydrogen isn't done at the pump level, but mostly at the station level. I'm sure some stations dispense hydrogen that is a blend of renewable and natural gas derived, but for the most part, it will be stations dispensing 100% renewable or 100% NG hydrogen. Austingreen has been reporting that none of the currently open to the public stations are renewable though.

Then there is some 'robbing Peter to pay Paul' going on. A station making hydrogen by electrolysist is counted as renewable if it simply buys RECs to offset its electric production. Which means that renewable electric isn't counted into the grid's renewable portion. Unless it isn't robbing Peter, and paying Paul with counterfeits instead.