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Featured eAssist - it's back

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Trollbait, Feb 29, 2016.

  1. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    And in a truck.
    Mated to the V8 with 8 speed transmission of the Silverado, the system brings the EPA ratings up to that of the V6 model. 2mpg city and 1mpg highway doesn't look like much on paper, but it could be worth it to someone that actually needs the V8.

    A feature to feature comparison can't be done yet, but it appears the eAssist adds just $700 to the steep price of the ICE model. A basic start/stop system runs in the $300 to $500 range as an option. Though just getting the V6 will save a little over $1000 compared to the plain V8.

    2016 Chevrolet Silverado Mild Hybrid? | CleanMPG
    "GMs latest eAssist iteration is more modular than the previous system, meaning it could be more easily used in FWD or RWD configurations."

    Which could mean potential savings for the system if it gets installed in more vehicles, but only 700 of these Chevy and GMC trucks will be made for California this year.:(
     
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  2. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    It doesn't make any sense to me, from a marketing standpoint.

    My speculation is the vast, vast majority, read mostly ALL potential buyers of a full sized V8 Silverado, are almost by definition NOT concerned with fuel economy.

    Tell them it has a "start/stop" engine and they are actually going to be put off. These are owners that WANT the engine running at a stop light. You'd probably increase sales if it came with a "start/rev the engine" system instead.

    The buy in for the addition might be economical, but with gas prices very low in most areas, I just don't see where the market for this is created. 700 of them might be overproduction.

    2 mpg city, 1 mpg highway? Are you kidding me? I almost wish Chevy wouldn't bother. I think products like this can actually do more damage to the whole evolution of more efficient vehicles in all forms than good. When it ultimately fails, Management within Chevrolet can site it as "proof" the whole concept doesn't work. When actually, it's just the delivery of the wrong product, to the wrong audience, at the wrong time.
     
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  3. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    You are painting with too broad a brush. There are truck buyers that are concerned with fuel economy. Mostly those that need the truck for a business, but there are a few private owners in which it is a consideration. The only option for improved fuel economy while retaining payload and towing of the V8 is a small block diesel.

    Limiting it to California avoids the issue of cheap gas. It will save $100 per year at $2.50 gallon. Paying off the extra cost well within the time most trucks are kept.

    Real news isn't the truck though. It is that GM made this system easy to add to any vehicle, and they can sell it for a little bit more than a start/stop system. Low cost means it more cars could be sold with it. A full hybrid will return better fuel economy, but with a $2000+ over the ICE model few people actually buy them. It's about numbers. A low cost mild hybrid that could potentially be put on all a companies ICE models without hurting their price competitiveness, can save more total gas than the fewer full hybrids sold.

    Hopefully, these trucks will deliver on their promised improvement. Americans aren't going to stop buying trucks in the near future.
     
  4. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    What is the difference between this and a start stop system? It sounds a lot like ford's stop start system.

    edit: It appears its got a bigger motor than a normal start stop.
    Seems like a lot of work to tie ford's ecoboost 3.5L v6. I'm sure we will have a comparison with some real world figures. The good news is gm is probably doing this at cost or a loss, or maybe that is bad news.
     
    #4 austingreen, Feb 29, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2016
  5. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    I respectfully just disagree on nearly all points. I think most people that have penciled in V8 Full Sized Silverado on their shopping list, do NOT simultaneously have "fuel economy" as a high priority. Even if they do? I don't think the "increase" of 1-2 mpg would even register. ( The people I know, that own full sized pick-ups are actually going to laugh at that, like it's the punchline to a joke).

    The evolution of the 'offering" of E-Assist?
    That might be of value and a positive thing.

    But as presented in this specific application, my bet is confidently placed on epic fail.
     
  6. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    what does making 700 for cali do for gm, credits? or are they feeling out the market?
     
  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    It's a mild hybrid that is more on the mild side. Compared to a start/stop, it also gives the truck regenerative braking. The motor also provides a little boost to propulsion. At least enough to allow more use of the cylinder deactivation.

    Just feeling out the market. The state's size and gas prices make it a good place to test the waters.
    It likely gets a credit or adjustment for CAFE like a basic start/stop system. I don't see 700 as enough to make a dent in GM's truck fleet numbers, but it might let the accounts to underwrite some of the system's cost on the price tag.

    The use MPG does hurt the sales of fuel saving technologies. The 2mpg increase to this truck's city numbers is actually a larger increase than in efficiency than the gen4's city number over the gen3's, and the Eco's over the gen4's. It is a 12.5% increase to the Eco's 14% over the gen3. But in MPG figures, it just doesn't look impressive. I'm sure the highlander hybrid lost sales because its fuel economy didn't look as impressive as the Prius' did.

    Businesses will consider the fuel economy. Then the eAssist is cheap. It is less than the GM tonneau cover, way less than the rear DVD system, and might be as much as a premium paint color.

    It is a test run of 700 trucks, I don't think GM expects much from it at this time, but gas prices aren't going to remain cheap over the life of one of these trucks.
     
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    • Starting a new, electric go-cart racing division
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    It is on the wrong end of the engine.

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  9. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    It seems to really increase efficiency here, you need to go down the bmw/mercedes/vw/hyundai road, plus increase engine efficiency.

    1) replace the normally aspirated engine with a downsized turbo charged one that can hit your HP needs, but will stay efficient at lower power levels.

    2) replace the torque converter with a motor/clutch/battery/inverter. Make the power steering and air conditioning electric.

    3) tune the engine to work with the motor. Regear the transmission for the new motor/engine torque curve.

    4) For awd add a motor up front and increase battery power probably adding a plug.

    Ford has done step 1. Step 2 doesn't save that much gas without step 1. My guess is it costs $5k instead of $700 more but its a real hybrid system. If I were gm I'd reach out to hyundai and bmw and see if one would license their system cheap for a pick up truck. Costs might go down if gm used the same battery/motor/inverter as the ioniq.
     
  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    1. The AFM, cylinder deactivation, for this generation of GM trucks has been quite improved. In a comparison to the 2.7L Ecoboost F150, this V8 did just as well in fuel consumption. more below
    2. Requires a larger motor and rest that will increase cost. The power steering is already electric, and an electric A/C depends upon power draw and battery size.
    3. The cost of doing this for a full hybrid will be higher than a mild one; a mild one will likely be fine with the existing transmission while a full will require the work of putting in an entirely different ICE.
    4. For a full hybrid, it could be the best course. For some applications, the duration of full AWD will be a question.
    A 1500 class truck that was a full hybrid should get better fuel economy. But it needs to be affordable, and not put a limit on what people do with their full size truck. We haven't seen one yet. People have scoffed at the hybrid label being applied to BAS and eAssist, and justifiably so. In terms of fuel economy, they are a step above auto start/stop systems. Which wasn't worth what GM charged back then, but if they actually have gotten the cost down to just a little more than a start/stop system, then it could be worth it.

    I think GM is looking to this eAssist as an easy drop in for all their models as CAFE targets increase. An auto start/stop does get a credit for CAFE, but the actual improvement on the EPA test for something with low MPG to begin with, could be lost to rounding errors. As is, eAssist does provide an actual increase on the test.

    PickupTrucks.com did a fuel economy challenge not too long ago between the Ram w/ 3L diesel, F150 w/ 2.7L Ecoboost, Silverado w/ V8 and new 8 speed transmission, and the Tundra with the small V8. The course was done empty and with a 1500# load. The Ford and Chevy were pretty close. The AFM came on even with the load. They did turn the F150's auto stop off to keep the comparison like, so it should do a little better on trips with multiple stops. Likewise with a truck with this eAssist.

    Texas Truck Showdown 2016: MPG Mileage Test - PickupTrucks.com News

    The issue with turbocharging and cylinder activation for fuel economy on trucks is that their benefit is lost on trucks that are use regularly for heavy loads and towing. The AFM doesn't come on because of the power demands, and turbos quickly reach the fuel sucking levels of boost. Until we actually get a full hybrid truck that buyers are willing to pay for, diesels will be the choice for fuel economy and payload.
     
  11. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I agree with all of this except item 1.
    Compare Side-by-Side


    I would do a 3L V6 with twin scrolling turbo and variable lift with cyclinder deactivation for these trucks. The 2.7L may be a little too downsized unless you put a big battery there. Twin scroll of the bmw 3L probably gives a great torque band of a truck, but gm is v6 and that is better for cyclinder deactivation although with di really you can fake it in the straight 6.

    2 mode was not affordable, what I described bmw and merciedes say is much less than 2 mode. Its a start stop system not much more on eAssist. I don't think people will pay even than $500. CAFE gives a big bonus for hybrid trucks in 2025, time for gm to get cracking.

    YMMV. It does not increase usable torque, which the hybrid I described does.
    TL;DR Ok I skimmed it. They deactivated start stop and eco mode on the ford. I'm sure with the smaller engine they got into the heavy trubo, which you wouldn't likely with a hybrid. HOw in the heck did they get more mpg loaded than empty. Not quite to be believed YMMV. That trurbo is going to outperform on a different test. I get it gm is adding eAssit to theirs and pretending its better than the start stop on the ford. The ford still makes torque at lower rpm, but you need the 3.5L to beat a v8 in heavy acceleartion. Like I said, if I was ground uping it would be a 3L turbo 6 with twin scroll and cylinder deactivation. Probably could copy pretty much the one bmw 330i engine but make it a 6. That gets you to 270 hp but high torque from 1250 rpm. Add a 1.5 kwh lithium battery (3x bigger than gm's in the eAssist) and a fairly inexpensive 42 kw motor we probably can get 320 hp and remove the torque converter. That sounds a lot lower than the 355 hp gm is pumpting from its 5.3 L v8 and it is, but it will likely tow better and get to 60 faster given the torque curve. Once on the highway you get a 1.5L miller cycle with deactivation, and a more efficient transmission with no torque conerter, but aero will still make it thirsty, just not as thirsty.
     
    #11 austingreen, Mar 1, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2016
  12. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The Chevy getting eAssist and was tested has an 8 speed transmission. Nothing about it on Fueleconomy.gov and Chevy's on site though.

    Is this system in any truck/SUV now? How does the payload and towing capabilities compare to the ICE?
    Low enough cost, and it could be made standard; it is $500 on a vehicle with a price tag of around $40k. As is, eAssist likely counts as a hybrid for CAFE.

    If GM needs to get cracking, Toyota needs to wake up.;)

    Which is a good improvement for day to day driving, but not for payload if the system needs to be protected for whatever reason.

    The GM tested didn't have the eAssist.

    As for the better fuel economy when loaded, the test drivers said they were more careful driving with the load; gentler acceleration and braking. If the load leveled out the rear suspension, there might have been a little aero improvement.
     
  13. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Its new, and limited production no one has really tested gm's start stop or eAssist on the silverado. They did on the malibu, and eassist did no better than start stop.

    Ford has 2.7L abd 3.5L turboed to provide peak torque @2500. BMW's implentation is more expensive but provides peak torque between 1500-4500 rpm better for a truck and a sports sedan. Remember I'm not implying hsd. Ford started out with the 3.5, if it wasn't there they probably would have done a 3L v6 and 4L v8 ;) with turbo di. I'm just stating since gm is starting from scratch pick the right turbo. The low end torque means less efficiency above 4500 rpm, but other than accleration the transission should keep the ice in efficient range. The 2.7 is a little undersized (and why not do a 4 cylinder then).
    Toyota can use prius credits to apply to tacoma and turndra inefficiency. They don't sell nearly the number of trucks as gm and ford. Still they make great profits, last year ford's f-series profits were higher than the corporate profits (they lost money on the rest of the company). I was hoping ford and toyota would work on a truck hybrid, but that agreement fell through. 2025 is the magic date. I expect one to have one by 2020, and people will buy if its refined.

    The best bang for buck is probably a phev awd truck. Hopefully someone builds it.
     
  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The last generation Malibu dropped the eAssist for start/stop, but it also got a whole new, more efficient engine; it's apples to oranges. That said, Gerdes and others where underwhelmed by the eAssist performance.

    I found the news on cost and it being modular of more interest. We are getting a full Malibu hybrid that will likely sell at the same rate as the other midsize hybrids do in comparison to their ICE counterparts. An inexpensive mild hybrid system that could be made standard on the model could save more gas than the 10% or so of full hybrids sold. Regenerative braking and active shutters improve the Mazda6 MPG ratings by 2. eAssist adds in start/stop.
    Two-mode and the Pathfinder hybrid both had a reduced tow rating in comparison to the ICE models. Two-mode came closest to being full work truck capable, but had that cost issue. So it isn't just an HSD only issue at this point. Then pick up trucks are expensive to begin with. Add cheap gas and MPG for sticker ratings, a hybrid system that adds over a grand to the MSRP will be a tough sell.

    AFM with a wider gear selection seem to be working as well as the turbo for GM, and there is still the "no replacement for displacement' crowd buying trucks. Ford still has their V8 to sell to them. The same crowd would also buy a V6 before an I4 regardless of displacement. I'm happy with my little GM turbo, but I also don't buy full size trucks for personal issues.

    The 2.7L might have been conceived for the F100 rebirth before it was cancelled. There are rumors Ford will be bringing out a midsize truck and new SUV. The AWD Fusion with it is probably fun.

    I know about the credits, and the possible 5L Cummings in the Tundra shows that Toyota is more interested in selling trucks to people with personal issues then something with broader appeal.

    A full hybrid truck will come along. We might even see a hydraulic one. At this point, small block diesels are the working solution. That near 10mpg advantage the Ram had over the GM and Ford in the PickupTrucks.com test is hard to ignore.

    What, the high priced conversion doesn't count?:) I think you are right about the PHEV truck. With the Volt and Bolt, GM is likely waiting for costs to drop further instead of using credits on a truck, if it is in their plans.
     
  15. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    In a really powerfull v8 truck engine it will be more underwelming. Hey they may be using the new hybrid lithium/lead acid battery which may be an improvement over the glass mat lead acid used currently in start stop. It don't think it will add any power. Its a start stop. Marketing of eAssist is just a loser right now.

    Sure Idk. It doesn't make much sense to me. Thermal efficiency seems to be better at 0.5L cyclinders or larger. I can see 2.7 because you want something smaller than 3.5, but not if you don't have a 3.5. A 2.7L 4 banger makes more sense, but again, if you are trying to be more powerful than a turbo 2L 4, you probably steop up to 3L not all the way to 3.5. Anyway for gm, time to take their 2L 4 and build a 3L v6, perhaps with bmw's turbo strategy for low end torque.

    We had full hybrid two-mode but they were deemed too expensive for the gas savings. I don't really believe the diesel will get 10 mpg in the real world and it only does 3mpg than the f150 in epa testing. Tests should be repeatable. It may be more than the 3 but I doubt that 10 is achievable. Still I expect to see a more affordable hybrid truck. For now we have dodge and gm diesel truck. Hopefully we get a ford and gm hybrid.

    +1
    Yes the via motors frankentruck from con man lutz does not count. I really think voltec won't work in a truck, the lexus rc franken transmission won't cut it eaither. IMHO a rwd with clutced motor to a 6 or 8 speed transmissioin with an efficient turbo engine, large battery and fwd motor to give electronic awd.
     
  16. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Can't overlook the regenerative braking.
    I think this is GM just real world testing eAssist to keep the technology improving. The 3rd party 48-volt mild hybrid systems were in the news not too long ago.

    Can't twin turbo a 4 cylinder?

    EPA might under estimate diesel fuel economy, but the studies showing that might have been poisoned with VWs. The time period of the EPA's own report covering the subject may have been before the cheat devices, but then that would make it before stricter emission controls.

    Ram's Eco trucks(diesel and gas) make use of fuel saving tech more often than the others; like active shutters, and self lowering suspension at cruise speeds.

    I'd like to see a viable full hybrid system in a truck. Perhaps the one in the CT6 could be adapted. F150 test mules running a diesel have been spotted in the wild. So Ford is hedging their hybrid bets in relation to trucks.
     
  17. UsedToLoveCars

    UsedToLoveCars Active Member

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    so let's say this saves 2mpg. Over a year (let's say 10,000 miles), this will save (10000/12) - (10000/14) = 118 gallons per truck.

    Now I can't find exact sales figures for the silverado, other than 13,000,000 have been sold in the past 15 years. Let's just pretend GM manages to sell 1,000,000 trucks with eAssist.

    That would be a fuel savings of 118 million gallons of gasoline. Per year.

    Why are people ridiculing this system?
     
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  18. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    Because a full hybrid system would roughly save 3-5 times that.
     
  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    The problem is the power in and out of the system is about the same power as needed to turn over the engine. The engine drag, ~5 hp / 3.7 kW is the drive-train equivalent of having a parking brake half-set, all the time and shares the same characteristics as the Honda IMA.

    Bob Wilson
     
  20. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    How would this even be marketed ?

    With such a tiny improvement, so small it won't even be noticed, there is no real draw. People may look at it as just something else that could need maintenance later.

    There is no good response to "Why bother?"