Featured Hyundai IONIQ - Prius competitor?

Which is why I note the absence of TV commercials for these "Betas".

Bob Wilson

 

Not to someone looking for a small SUV that is fuel efficient. The Rav4 has bloated over the years, and the hybrid is 1500 pounds heavier than the current Sportage. In terms of performance, the two will be close.

The Rav4 does have Sorrento size space, and it may win out because of that, but I see hybrid SUV buyers cross shopping the it with the Niro. If total fuel savings is more important than cargo space, then the Niro may win out.

 

By the time Niro arrives, Toyota C-HR will also be available. RAV4h is another class.

 

As Toyota made any announcements about the C-HR's fuel economy yet?

 

I was not familiar with the C-HR, so I looked it up. The heading over the picture said the "Production Model" would be introduced at the Geneva Show. (Carscoops.com)
What I don't understand, is that a "concept" vehicle? or something slated for production?
I know some of you will disagree with me, but if it's a "concept," the design is free flowing and interesting. If the pictured "C-HR" is slated for production, the interior volume appears minimum. It does not look like a vehicle for hauling much of anything.
I am a disbeliever at this point.

PS
Carscoops said:
"The production vehicle is expected to be powered by a next-gen hybrid system and a four-cylinder engine mated to a CVT gearbox. The crossover will allegedly be similar in size to the Nissan Juke, and it will be built on Toyota’s New Generation Architecture platform."

The indication is the Geneva Show is in March.

 

Said about the powerplant, same as 4Gen Prius.
Despite no FE indicated, I'm absolutely sure it will deliver very high MPGs for a SUV of its class...

 

This has been the ultimate goal, replacing 'traditional' engine-transmissions with a hybrid drive. It has been nearly 20 years but the original hybrid drive has evolved to where this becomes a practical option.

This is complemented by the TNGA that should share tooling and manufacturing. There may be some loss of load-to-weight but nothing significant. In fact the high-strength steels may solve any issues quite nicely.

Bob Wilson

 

I can see no reason why Toyota could not make the transition now. Naturally I have not drive the new Prius, but my 2015 TAH is so refined, that passengers find it hard to believe it is a hybrid. The greatest problem I see is that many, still believe (I hear it frequently) that hybrid batteries are prone to fail early, and replacements cost thousands of dollars. I believe that Toyota has solved that, at least with the old battery chemistry. I hope the new lithium will fare as well.

I will never own another non-hybrid.




Merged.





The competition continues to increase.
On 9 Feb, Carscoops.com displayed an attractive vehicle from Ford. Yet to be named, it states:
"Besides the expansion of the RS lineup, Ford's plans for the future reportedly include the introduction of a Toyota Prius and Hyundai Ioniq rival."

BTW, I have enjoyed Carscoops.com. It does a very credible job of revealing/showing/discussing current/future/concept cars, plus road test of current cars.

 

Wrong thread, deleted.

 

what happen to the c max? i thought that was the prius killer?

 

Ford seemed to target prius v not prius liftback market. Did it kill the prius v? We will know soon. Sales dropped because ford lied about fuel efficiency. Then they dropped further with low gas prices. Last year prius v was 28,290
c-max was 21,768

not sure of the ultimate goal, but to me a phev - shifting away from oil would be a higher goal than hybrid drive. The problem is size, weight, and cost. Even these cute utes are big heavy vehicles, perfectly capable of carrying a bigger battery. Here the nero and outlander phev, maybe a better choice of destination - but the rav4 is a much more popular platform.

 

Hyundai Estimates Electric Range For IONIQ PHEV At 32 Miles & IONIQ BEV At 155 Miles

 

Thanks a lot Sergio, i'm very curious about the behaviour of the DCT trasmission, and found very interesting the Ioniq test of Autocar in Seul, reported in the same article:

----------------------------------------

What's it like?:
‘Effortless’ is probably the best way of describing the Ioniq. Driving it out into the Seoul morning traffic, it’s clear within the first few hundred yards that this is a car engineered for the lower speeds and heavy traffic of cities such as Tokyo and Los Angeles.
The chassis tuning - in this Korean-spec version at least - is on the pleasant side of firm. There’s a little bump-thump from the rear end at low speeds on inner-city roads, but the Ioniq is almost EV-like in its progress.

There’s no hesitation from this transmission - the company really has delivered on developing a hybrid with a sense of ‘direct drive’ - and it’smooth and very refined in city situations, especially when the engine is in stop-start mode. The braking system also seemed a step ahead of many regenerative systems, switching smoothly between braking on the motor and braking mechanically.

On a Seoul urban motorway network with a speed limit of just 56mph, it was difficult to tell how well the Ioniq would cope with the high-speed traffic on UK motorways. But again, the DSG transmission is impressively normal in its responses to demands for acceleration, shifting quickly and locking the engine back into the front wheels without hunting.

On the run out to the hills east of Seoul, the Ioniq averaged nearly 52mpg - impressive when the engine had just 500 miles under its camshafts and the exterior temperature was -6deg. Then again, the whole journey was run at a near-ideal speed for maximum economy.

A short drive along undulating A-roads showed the car in particularly impressive form. Watching the live graphic showing how the Ioniq shuttles between using engine power, battery power and coasting (when heading downhill), revealed a transmission that’s extremely reactive and quick-thinking.
These road conditions showed that the chassis has some life and character, although it is hardly a compelling driver’s car. The steering is light but quite well judged to allow the driver to place the car accurately and the body control is nicely judged.

 

I can't stand transmission shifts anymore and probably will not buy hybrids or phevs with a regular transmission.

If they also offer this lifetime battery warranty for phevs & bevs; the Ioniq Trio will do very well imo.

 

RE: Transmission Shifts

I owned a 2013 Acura that was a wonderful vehicle in every respect, except one. After owning a CVT (2010 Prius) I found it irritating while driving 65 mph down the Interstate in 5th gear and when going over an overpass (barely a rise in the road) and the Acura's transmission would noticeably downshift to 4th. There was nothing I could do to prevent it.

Compare that to my BMW with a manual transmission, and I can accelerate up a mountain grade in 5th gear. Naturally, the Prius CVT was making an adjustment as well, because the fuel efficiency would drop, but I was never aware of the adjustment.

So, for me, one test of Hyundai's DCT transmission would be the ability to drive the Interstate without constantly downshifting and upshifting.

 

The need to downshift depends upon the gear ratios.

After years of reviewers and/or owners complaining about having to downshift for hills or passing with manuals, the manufacturers started putting high/steep ratio speeds in for the final gear. Yay, no more need to downshift, but now the engine spins at higher rpm and uses more fuel while cruising on the highway. Most of the efficiency gap closing between manuals and automatics can be traced what final gear ratios the two were getting.

So, do you remember your Acura's and BMW's fuel economy at 65mph?

The review Maxwell61 posted praises the Ioniq's shifting, but the reviewer admits he couldn't actually test it at the highway speeds we and Europe sees. The Ioniq has 7 speeds, and I bet 2 or 3 of them are overdrives. So there may be some regular shifting on a hilly interstate, but if the shifts are as quick and smooth as the reviewer says, most likely won't notice it.

 

I don't really notice any phevs with regular transmissions other than the sonata, this sucker is a dual clutch, which is like a very fast shifting automated manual.

Different people have different preferences. When done right a double clutch transmission is probably the luxury transmission. It originally came from race cars and sports cars, but now they have figured out how to make them less expensive. CVTs have low penetration of the market, but in the 200 hp or less hybrid battle, the hsd type of electronic cvt The problem with hsd is A) software does not give responsive driving note or power, and B) It does not scale well. A really is not much of a technical problem but toyota has not paid it much attention. B doesn't matter here because the power of the ioniq is within the good range of the hsd system.

acura had designed the gear ratios to do well on the epa test. The engine/gear combination likely did not have enough power so it downshifted. Hyundai has one more gear ;-)

The prius slips into other gears constantly, it does not hold a gear ratio. Many people find this irritating on the highway, but good in stop and go driving. If you like it on the highway no reason to switch at all. The bmw had more power/weight in 5th gear than your accura

Do you mean on cruise control? It should be able to do that quite well as long as you don't have drastic rolling hills. One trick it has that your accura didn't is it can add power with the battery when going up hill, and turn the engine off and save gas when going down hill then restart it, without disengaging the electric motor. Depending on the speed you are going it may be 5th gear instead of 6th if its hilly.

 

The Optima PHEV has a step transmission, but it is a reskinned Sonata, so, um, never mind.

What might matter is the cost. In order to provide hybrid operation to works like a CVT without the traditional CVT, HSD style systems use 2 largish motors. Not only does a parallel system like in the Ioniq only have one motor, it can be sized a little smaller and still return about the same overall performance for lower cost. The HSG Hyundai uses will cost more than the traditional alternator and starter, but will be cheaper than the MG1. But it may become smaller or switched back for traditional components if the parallel hybrid is capable of automated bump starting.

 

No one knows what it costs hyundai and kia to make this system. We know in the velocitor hyundai charged more for a dual clutch, and everyone elses dual clutch costs more than a normal automatic which is normally more than a manual.

We have 3 clutches and 7 gears versus a couple of universals in hsd. That has to cost hyundai more. Versus that we have 2 smaller motors and smaller inverter(s) which should cost less. My guess is toyota has the lower cost, but hyundai will eat the difference. When you up it to the size of say the Lexus RX those motors get much bigger and more expensive and that psd needs to be beafier to handle the extra torque splits, but on a 140 hp system (MG + engine at what ever peak) the prius motors probably are not very much more expensive.

mazda had some neat tricks with di/valve timing/spark firing to not need a starter, but ... if you want it to last 200,000+ miles better put a beafy starter motor there, but its much smaller/lighter/less expensive than the prius mg1.

 

The VW group brands also have plugin hybrids that use a similar arrangement with a single electric motor combined with an engine and then run through a step transmission. For example, the VW Jetta Hybrid uses a 27 HP electric motor and a 7-speed DSG. Honda's old IMA hybrid system was also similar but only recall the transmission component being with manual or a mechanical CVT but without any option for an automatic step transmission.