2nd Gen Prius Plug-In already in the works? September 2016 release noted

The way I see it...Toyota shouldn't close off EV but embrace it. Toyota should be the name of efficiency. If the Prius can do 56 mpg combined, why not have an EV/plugin that could do xxx miles per KWH?

I'm going to do some simple stupid math (because I know this isn't true regarding the volt overall in terms of usable KWH).

Say Gen 2 Volt does: 53 miles on 18.4 kWh, that's 2.88 miles per kWh. The PiP did 11 miles on on 4.4 kWh, that's 2.5 miles per kWh (again stupid math).

Why shouldn't Toyota claim "We can make the best fuel efficient vehicle in gas and Electric form!?"

And say...have the 2nd PiP do 4 miles per kWh, so with the same battery it'd do 17.6 miles EV. How cool would that be (with a lower cost over all!) Then you can increase the density to maybe 8.8 kWh and double the miles without taking up much more space.

I believe Tesla has some sort of "eco" EV mode, but I'm not sure how efficient it is.

 

toyota doesn't believe that ev is the future. that's the reason.
that being said, the next pip will probably do 20-30 miles of ev real world. but their heart isn't in it, they're just hedging their bets. fortunately, there are plenty of ev options for those interested.

 

COST

We'd all like a vehicle with a plug that's actually affordable. Rolling out a vehicle to the masses that's dependent upon a $7,500 tax-credit isn't a good business choice. Once that subsidy is gone (each automaker gets 200,000 before phaseout begins), the challenge to grow sales and be profitable becomes even more difficult.

GM is taking quite a gamble, especially with remaining credits available being divided between Volt & Bolt.

Toyota held off and will strive to deliver something capable of standing on its own. That means larger quantity with lower cost. So, keeping the battery at a size reasonable enough to compete with other high-volume sellers is a big deal.

Remember, the competition is vehicles on the same showroom floor, not those offered from other automakers. Keep in mind, Toyota sold 2,499,313 vehicles here in the United States last year. GM sold 3,082,366. That puts some perspective on just how few 200,000 really is.

 

20 miles or so of EV range can be plenty. It depends on the balance of cost, space trade off for battery, and CS mode fuel efficiency.

They won't for the same reasons GM didn't put one in the gen2 Volt. It is a cost increase for little benefit to the majority of buyers

Toyota didn't design the Prius PHEV to be an EREV, but to be a factory version of the plug in kits that were available. Some of those kits didn't change the Prius's EV mode behavior and limits at all, but the injection of grid juice allowed the HSD to make greater use of the motors during operation for greater efficiency in using gasoline.

The factory PHEV got a larger range of when EV mode was possible over the non-PHEV model, but the ultimate goal of the design was making the gasoline it did use as efficient as possible, and not provide an EV experience. Toyota did a lousy job of communicating this.

This won't change with the next PHEV, but the EV speed and blending limits will be pushed up. With the rumored 20 mile EV range, these will be around where the Ford Energis are at.

As EV range increases, range extender efficiency becomes less important. Take the Volt, it uses more gas than a Prius in CS mode, but the longer EV range means it is in CS mode for less time over the typical commute. Which means less gas used in total.

A wireless charger will cost more, and will take more electricity to charge the car.

An EVSE charger isn't a need for a PHEV. Even a gen 1 Volt, and perhaps the gen2, could charge up at home in the time it usually parked there during a day. The EVSE prices have greatly decreased price, and there are some benefits to using them that make looking into getting one worth it. They are more convenient than dragging out the 15 amp charge cord, and more aesthetically pleasing, and maybe safer, than simply leaving the cord plugged into the outlet all the time. There is a small efficiency boost in charging with one. Then some PHEV models allow cabin preconditioning when one is used.

There is cost, and Toyota didn't want to intrude upon cabin and cargo space with the Prius PHEV. They are still likely working with those goals.

They do say that about the current Prius PHEV, or at least the model's fans do. Again, Toyota did a lousy job of advertising and communicating their vision for the car.

 

I am confused if PiP2 helps Toyota meet their ZEV credits in CA.

 

The intent was to remain flexible, not revealing a mass-market plan until the initial data-collection phase completed.

Since it was a mid-cycle rollout and the other plug-in offerings were facing unexpected barriers, it didn't make good business sense to commit yet. They chose to watch & learn about the emerging market.

Waiting until gen-2 is still looks to be a wise move. That delay (lousy job) should make things easier in the long run. Toyota can start fresh, rather than have to backpedal as with certain others.

 

Depends on what ZEV credits you are talking about?

Under the ZEV program, a manufacturer has to sell a certain amount of zero or near zero emission cars in CARB states. Quota is probably the best description, though credit is used to describe a car sold that meets it, hence some of the confusion. Naturally, FCEVs and BEVs count towards this quota, but TZEV, AT-PZEV, and even PZEV cars could count for it. The amount of the later three that could be used for meeting the quota is limited and the amount gets lower with passing years. I don't know what the current amounts and limits are, but I bet PZEVs are no longer allowed, and eventually, only BEVs and FCEVs will count.

TZEV stands for transitional zero emission vehicle. The group includes hydrogen ICEs and PHEVs.

On top of the quota, the manufacturer also needs a number of actual credits. These are what are most likely the subject in discussions of ZEV credits, and are the ones that can be sold or traded to other companies. Only BEVs and FCEVs earn them. The amount each car sold earns depends upon range and the ability to fast refuel. The table has been posted in one of the FCEV threads, but it is greater the one and goes up to 9 for a long range FCEV.

The next Prius PHEV will likely count towards Toyota's quota by the time it comes out, but will not earn any credits.

I wasn't talking about the reneging on nationwide roll, but the idea that the Prius Plug In wasn't using grid power to act like an EV, but to make it a better hybrid. The only reason I know that is because of your posts here. I never came across anything from Toyota itself that simply explained it, and I have more interest in plug ins than the typical American. That was the job that Toyota botched up.

 

You won't either. That hasn't been and still isn't their approach. Gen-2 could change that.

Notice the overlying simplistic diagrams in the car? That's intentional targeting of ordinary consumers... in other words, KISS.

There wasn't an expectation of so much purposeful misleading back when rollout began. Until then, people readily understood what adding a plug delivered.

 

And yet they're wasting their money developing wireless charging that nobody needs (and most don't want)...

 

How do you know most don't want?

The convenience of not having to plug in and the concealment of fixed wiring will be an appeal for some.

Also, think about parking situations in tight garages. Reaching the port to plug in can be a challenge.

 

The Prius likely already has the best miles per kilowatt efficiency, but it isn't a fair comparison to other EVs. The reason is that the EV mode in the Prius has many limitations that others do not, such as a 62 MPH speed limit, and a relatively low power limit before the gas engine comes on, and cabin heat that doesn't come from the battery...

Also, the PiP achieves 4 miles per kWh for many people. A charge from "empty" is 3 kWh, so traveling 12 miles on those 3 kWh (which factors in charging losses) achieves 4 miles per kWh (12 miles / 3 kWh = 4 m/kWh).

Where does >20 miles estimate come from? I find it unlikely for Toyota to more than double anything, especially EV range.

In my view, GM played the credit game properly, and Toyota is leaving massive amounts of money on the table. The tax credit is limited to 200,000 vehicles per manufacturer, and the credit is pro-rated to the capacity of the battery. Toyota's PiP qualifies for the minimum tax credit ($2,500) while still counting toward their 200,000 vehicle limit. GM on the other hand produced the Volt, with the smallest capacity battery (16 kWh) that qualifies for the maximum tax credit ($7,500). GM is leaving no money on the table, and is also keeping vehicle cost down by not making the battery much larger than needed to get the full credit. If Toyota were to sell all 200,000 vehicles at the minimum credit, that would be $500,000,000 compared to the maximum credit of 1,500,000,000. They would be leaving a billion dollars on the table.

Maybe Toyota opted for the minimum credit because most people don't have $7,500 in federal tax liability, and therefore can't utilize the full credit. Perhaps Toyota didn't anticipate that most people will lease plug-ins and EVs, and leasing takes full advantage of the tax credit.

If I owned a car company, I would not offer less than 16 kWh in any of my plug-in or EV offerings. I would use battery purchase volume to reduce my unit cost, and focus on improving manufacturing processes to further cost-cut so that when the federal credits expire, the vehicles could continue to be sold at profit for a price consumers were willing to pay.

 

Toyota have said, they did what they "Should" and not what they "Could".

That means, having bigger battery would decrease the overall efficiency and increase emission, making PiP not as green as a standard Prius.

GM doesn't have such standard set high since there was no Cruze hybrid.

And of course, comparing Volt's emission to standard Prius make the plugin supporters upset.

 

Toyota studied the market and was well aware how few 200,000 really is. When that subsidy expires, the vehicle must be able to sustain high-volume profitable sales. Notice how gen-1 PiP rollout was limited, saving credits for gen-2?

GM will be facing that expiration, with 2 vehicles still depending upon that $7,500 credit, mid-cycle. Being just 2 years into gen-2 Volt and the new Bolt will make sales in large quantity quite a challenge.

Who cares about not getting more federal assistance if the vehicle becomes difficult to sell afterward. That is not a game you want to lose.

 

Volt earning ZEV credits allow them to sell more trucks. Let the tax payers pay for the cost of Volt. They make more money on trucks.

 

If I were thinking short-term, I would do exactly what Toyota did. However, if the long-term is increasing EV usage to meet ever increasing fuel economy and emissions regulations as well as customer demand, I would use the tax credit to develop higher range EV technologies and logistics so that I have an edge on the competition for when the future inevitably becomes the present. GM appears to have the edge on the future.

 

We know capacity will be increased for PiP. We've heard that power will top-speed could increase to 110 km/h (68.3 mph). So, there is a natural generational improvement.

Toyota views the "competition" as traditional vehicles. GM views the "competition" as other plug-in vehicles. That fundamental difference has a profound influence on approach.

In other words, priorities are different. Toyota has always considered cost to be paramount. Range isn't as important if the end-product isn't affordable.

 

There was an autonet.tw article (Chinese) that stated a new Prius Plug-in was supposed to target a Japanese JC08 fuel economy rating of 50 km, which is 31 miles by the Japanese rating. If we extrapolate from the Gen 1 Prius Plug-in, that would translate to about 21 miles for the US EPA rating.

Why do we need to extrapolate? Because the US rating is tougher than the JC08 rating. The Gen 1 Prius Plug-in gets 26.4 km in the JC08 rating, which is 16.4 miles. But the US rates it at 11 miles.

JC08 50 km / JC08 26.4 km = 1.9X. 1.9X 11 miles = 21 miles. So no, 21 miles isn't double of 11 miles, but it's close to double, and it's more than 20 miles. That's where the estimate comes from.

Of course, this could all be bull, but autonet.tw has gotten things right before, so it could also be true. 20+ miles would certainly make a lot of potential PHEV owners happy too. You don't need 50 miles in a PHEV, since most people could commute and run errands on a 20+ mile range, but for longer ranges they can simply fall back to running gas, which the Prius line also excels with.

IF the car could do 65 mph easily and IF the car didn't always jump to gas assist every time you hit the gas a bit harder, and IF it would run longer on electricity in the winter, this would be the perfect car for me. Zero range anxiety, but long enough EV range for most urban commuting.

The big question here is cost of batteries, and the distribution of batteries. To get 1.9X of the Gen 1 PiP, you'll need a lot more battery. Yes battery density has increased, but but not by double, so you'll have to find other places to put it. Areas that have been mentioned have been underneath the rear seat and underneath the centre console. I've always wondered if they could put some batteries in the rear side panels too, but I suspect that would get too complicated, and any side-swipe accident would mean a HUGE repair bill and potential safety issues too.

 

it comes from a toyota exec last year.he said 30-35, but who knows exactly what he meant, or if it holds sway with final decision makers. but keep in mind, i'm saying real world, and that depends on many factors. for me, getting 15 on a regular basis, it won't take much increase to get to 20, and 30 is very doable.

 

30-35 miles would be JC08 50 km, which could be extrapolated to 21 miles US EPA. See above.

 

good call.

now that we know the area under the hatch is empty, perhaps he battery will come all the way back.