Quantitative Results of Grid Charge/Discharge

jeff652 · Dec 13, 2015

stephane said: ↑

Really dont want to be a pain but before to tell you I actually try it Jeff the charger kit was in my cart and I was ready to buy and it was 65$ US shipping for a total of 534$ US x 1.4 for a total of 747.60$ Canadian this is if im lucky and they dont add me duty and taxe 15.5% thank you
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I should correct myself. I was wrong in my prior post. The shipping cost to Canada for the *Prius* package is/was $65. The reason for this is the two-bulb discharger required that we use a 12x12x6 6lb or larger box. We have been using the Priority Mail large flat rate boxes. These do in fact cost $65 to Canada. However, I just investigated the Priority Mail Regional Rate B box with a 6 lb weight and the shipping on those is around $45! That is very cool. Thanks for pointing this out and helping prod me to explore other options. I am editing our shipping tables to adjust the shipping costs down right now

stephane · Dec 13, 2015

Getting better Jeff just to help you more im sure if you search you could even get better 12x12x6 6lb is a very small box and should be able to get rate as low as 25$.

Iamjo20 · Dec 29, 2015

S Keith said: ↑

Car: 2008, 143K miles. Purchased and lived in the Phoenix, AZ area.
Original owner is a long time friend.

He complained of deteriorated mileage. He was accustomed to his wife getting worse mileage them him because of her driving style; however, her mileage had dipped from the low-40s to the mid-35s. When he made a concerted effort to get good mileage, about 42 was the best he could get.

I offered to take a look at his battery for him.

Techstream reported very consistent IR of .023-.024 and a typical min/max block voltage difference of 0.2V. Driving charge/discharge tests didn't show anything alarming. The only outward signs of an issue were the battery meter dropping pretty quickly and the reduced mileage.

I conducted a baseline test as follows:

Force charge to max SoC.
Drive to test location (about a mile)
Conduct discharge test via reverse and slipping the brake

Chart of output:

The Capacity was computed by the average current between each time point and represents the area under the red curve. The average current of all readings was 15.3A. The total capacity used was 625mAh. The range of SoC was then used to extrapolate the total capacity of the pack. In this case the SoC went from 73 to 38.5 or 34.5% total. So 625/.345 = 1813mAh extrapolated total capacity of the pack.. about 27.9% of the rated 6500mAh.

Grid charge/discharge process:
Force charge with car to max SoC
Grid charge at 350mA for 24 hours with fan powered by separate 12V source.
Discharge with 2X 200W bulbs in series to 170V (current ranged from 1.7-1.4A)
Discharge with 2X 25W bulbs in series to 85V (current ranged from 0.17-0.12A)
Grid charge for 8.5 hours.
Reset 12V and car charge to max SoC
Reset 12V again and car charge to max SoC.

Conducted another discharge test that I was unable to export for some reason, here is the Techstream chart:

It looked improved, but with a lot of tedious effort in transcribing the data, I couldn't quantify the results in the same way. Additionally, the engine restarted at just under 50% SoC, which led me to believe that the ECU did not yet have an accurate representation of SoC.

Drive 70 miles over two days

Repeat initial discharge test, except I do it much better. I'm able to maintain higher currents more consistently. Here's the chart:

As you can see after the first minute or so, the current climbs, and I'm able to maintain 35-45A discharge throughout most of the test. The average current for this test is 25.5A - significantly higher than the original.

Computed Capacity: 1,679mAh
Extrapolated Capacity: 5,895mAh or 90.7% of rated.

DeltaV also dropped from a high of 0.58V before to 0.38V after.

Summary:

Parameter Initial Final 30 Day

1 Capacity used during test 625 mAh 1679 mAh TBD

2 Extrapolated capacity 1813 mAh 5895 mAh TBD

3 State of Health 27.9% 90.7% TBD

4 Max Block DeltaV under load 0.58V 0.38V TBD

5 Average Test Current 15.3A 25.5A TBD

6 Peak Test Current near end 38A 48A TBD

7 Block IR during test 27 - 28 mΩ 27 - 28 mΩ TBD

In addition, the performance feels great. I was able to easily cruise my neighborhood at speeds up to 30mph purely on electrics alone before the ICE kicked in (1.6mi). Mileage of 48mpg+ is attainable with only minimal efforts to "drive it like a hybrid." Getting less than 43 is tough even when I'm accelerating at full throttle to freeway speeds and deliberately avoiding regen (putting it in "N" when off-throttle and coming to a stop).

I will be returning the car to its owner tomorrow. I plan to repeat the discharge test in a few months for comparison.

Steve
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This is truly interesting to me! However, I know I cannot do this test/charge/discharge--who typically does something like this? TY

S Keith · Dec 29, 2015

Buy yourself a MiniVCI for about $30, and you suddenly have the ability.

EDIT: and a 32bit WinXp or Win7 laptop.

jeff652 · Dec 30, 2015

Iamjo20 said: ↑

This is truly interesting to me! However, I know I cannot do this test/charge/discharge--who typically does something like this? TY
Click to expand...

These tests show the benefits of performing preventative maintenance on your hybrid battery. You CAN extend the life of your hybrid battery by occasionally reconditioning and regularly charging/balancing it. We have our own graphs that show this on our website, and now there is independent Techstream results that support it as well.

You can read more about battery reconditioning and how our patent pending Prolong battery sytems enable this enable this here:
Prolong Battery Systems. Extending the life of your hybrid - Hybrid Automotive

Iamjo20 · Dec 30, 2015

jeff652 said: ↑

These tests show the benefits of performing preventative maintenance on your hybrid battery. You CAN extend the life of your hybrid battery by occasionally reconditioning and regularly charging/balancing it. We have our own graphs that show this on our website, and now there is independent Techstream results that support it as well.

You can read more about battery reconditioning and how our patent pending Prolong battery sytems enable this enable this here:
Prolong Battery Systems. Extending the life of your hybrid - Hybrid Automotive

Click to expand...

Thanks for responding!

S Keith · Jan 19, 2016

6 week test results added.

Table updated.

Conclusion added.

Owner still very happy.

Tester pleased with the results.

Steve

Bobakanoosh · Feb 11, 2016

Jeff,

Let's say I purchase the Prolonged Battery Reconditioning Pack. What do I need to "do" aside from pull everything apart? Do I need to do anything to the pack itself? Or is it more or less a plug and go? It looks pretty self explanatory, but I figured I would ask and see what all is necessary before purchasing the reconditioning pack?

Jordan

jeff652 · Feb 11, 2016

Bobakanoosh said: ↑

Jeff,

Let's say I purchase the Prolonged Battery Reconditioning Pack. What do I need to "do" aside from pull everything apart? Do I need to do anything to the pack itself? Or is it more or less a plug and go? It looks pretty self explanatory, but I figured I would ask and see what all is necessary before purchasing the reconditioning pack?

Jordan
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Hi Jordan,

There is the one time installation of the car harness. This take around 1.5-2 hours. After that the charger and discharger can be easily connected and disconnected in only a few seconds. Here is an overview of the battery reconditioning process that covers the process once the harness is installed:
Battery Reconditioning - Hybrid Automotive

And here is the installation instructions for the car harness itself:
2004 - 2009 Toyota Prius Installation Instructions - Hybrid Automotive

Jeff

Bobakanoosh · Feb 13, 2016

Jeff,

I guess I'm still a little bit skeptical on how this system evenly balances each cell? From what I understand each cell could be charged to slightly different voltages, and if they aren't all balanced individually then it won't work properly? I'm smart enough to know that I am missing something, but not smart enough to figure out exactly what I'm missing haha

Jordan

S Keith · Feb 13, 2016

Jordan,

Your understanding is incomplete.

The 24 hour grid charge passes the same current through all cells and drives them each to their respective 100% SoC. It overcharges the fullest cells at a safe level and allows the lagging cells to catch up. This is "top balancing."

The subsequent pack discharge to lower voltage levels ensures full consumption of normal potential capacity as well as voltage depressed capacity. In one shot, this accomplishes what 5+ cycles with a hobby charger can do. This can be thought of as "bottom balancing".

With this process, you have effectively expanded all CELLS (not just modules) to their maximum available capacity. A second 24 hr charge to 100% SoC ensures the pack is again top balanced, and this is the recommended state to resume operation.

I'd like to think these results speak for themselves... an 8 year old battery went from barely functional to measuring over 2X previous capacity under a far more strenuous test. The car is now behaving "like new" according to the owner.

100s of Honda IMA users have used the HA system to keep their packs operating for years AFTER an actual pack error has occurred.

Steve

jeff652 · Feb 14, 2016

Yeah, what S Keith said. Not sure I could have said it better myself

Bobakanoosh · Feb 17, 2016

Jeff,

I have been looking around to see what other pack chargers there are. I found the same one you sell on the website (at least it looks the same) on ebay. The kit on ebay is 369 plus shipping. On the website it is 399 plus shipping (for the 04' - 09' charger). What is the difference between the one on Ebay and the one on your website? From what I can tell, it looks like the Ebay charger doesn't come with the light bulb discharging unit while your website for sure does. Can you clarify? Because I would like the light bulb unit, but in case you have't noticed I'm kinda a penny pincher hehe.. So if the kit you are selling on ebay comes with that then I'll totally purchase it from there. What are the differences if any?

Thanks!
Jordan

By the way I do plan on buying the HV pack. I'm just looking for the best price (I'm poor)

jeff652 · Feb 17, 2016

Bobakanoosh said: ↑

Jeff,

I have been looking around to see what other pack chargers there are. I found the same one you sell on the website (at least it looks the same) on ebay. The kit on ebay is 369 plus shipping. On the website it is 399 plus shipping (for the 04' - 09' charger). What is the difference between the one on Ebay and the one on your website? From what I can tell, it looks like the Ebay charger doesn't come with the light bulb discharging unit while your website for sure does. Can you clarify? Because I would like the light bulb unit, but in case you have't noticed I'm kinda a penny pincher hehe.. So if the kit you are selling on ebay comes with that then I'll totally purchase it from there. What are the differences if any?

Thanks!
Jordan

By the way I do plan on buying the HV pack. I'm just looking for the best price (I'm poor)
Click to expand...

Hi Jordan,

The Prolong Standard Charger package is $369 on eBay and $339 on our website. eBay charges us 8% sellers fees which we don't have on our own website, so we pass the savings to you. The Prolong Discharge Ready Charger package is $349 on our website and not available on eBay. You need the Discharge Ready system to be compatible with our Simple Discharger, which is already included in the $399 Prolong Battery Reconditioning Package, also available only on our website.

Standard Prolong Battery Charger systems are designed to be used as preventative maintenance for healthy hybrid batteries. The Standard system allows for charging and balancing of the hybrid battery, but does not support battery reconditioning (deep discharging of the battery). By using our Standard charger system as preventative maintenance, battery degradation can be significantly delayed and often eliminated for the service life of the vehicle.

For batteries that are already showing signs of deterioration, the Discharge Ready version of our ProlongBattery Charger systems is recommended. The Discharge Ready versions are compatible with our ProlongBattery Dischargers. Many of our customers opt to perform in-car battery reconditioning, which requires both the Charger and Discharger. The Discharge Ready option by itself does not allow you to discharge the hybrid battery; a Prolong Hybrid Battery Discharger is required.

Hope this helps,
Jeff

Bobakanoosh · Feb 18, 2016

Jeff,

That helps tremendously! Thank you! I will be purchasing the Prolong Battery Reconditioning Package tonight, and will hopefully be able to balance the battery this weekend or next!
The only other question I think I have is would I be able to use another discharger to discharge? I like the idea of a regulated discharge that I can walk away from, but I don't think I can swing 700 dollars for that.

Jordan

jeff652 · Feb 18, 2016

Bobakanoosh said: ↑

Jeff,

That helps tremendously! Thank you! I will be purchasing the Prolong Battery Reconditioning Package tonight, and will hopefully be able to balance the battery this weekend or next!
The only other question I think I have is would I be able to use another discharger to discharge? I like the idea of a regulated discharge that I can walk away from, but I don't think I can swing 700 dollars for that.

Jordan
Click to expand...

The simple light bulb discharger is the most cost effective option. It does require manual monitoring, but since you are only doing this 1-2 times per year, for the cost savings the extra effort is worthwhile for most people. Of course we'd be happy to provide you with an Intelligent Discharger if you would prefer to go that route

Bobakanoosh · Feb 18, 2016

So I can not hook up like a B6 charger to the power supply you provide to discharge the pack? Like would that be safe?

S Keith · Feb 18, 2016

A B6 can handle something like 12-15 cells in series. 168 of them would instantly pop the power MOSFET and likely many other components the second you complete the circuit. Even my beloved Reaktors will release the magic smoke at about 100V.

Let's say it was even possible... the pathetic 5W power limitation would put the discharge current at 25mA nominal and would take 160 hours to drain 4000mAh to 1V/cell.

Bobakanoosh · Feb 22, 2016

Alright!
So I received my HA Reconditioning Pack today and I'm super excited to get it going, I just had (hopefully) one last question! Do I NEED a mini VCI to do the reconditioning? I know it's nice to have one to read the codes, but I don't have a win 7,XP,Vista laptop and don't feel like dropping more money and time on finding and purchasing one at this point. If the balancing works, and the codes go away once I finish everything, then do I really NEED to read the codes? I feel like it would kinda be a waste of money if it's not essential.
Any input would be appreciated!
Thanks
Jordan

S Keith · Feb 22, 2016

Not at all. The MiniVCI/Techstream was used for the before/after comparison.

It is SO worth it... $30 well spent assuming you have a suitable laptop... like the $100 ones you can pickup on craigslist...

Quantitative Results of Grid Charge/Discharge

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