Why America Must Build the Car That Overtakes a Tesla

The main topic of this thread is hydrogen FCEVs and how they are or aren't the future of personal cars. The Bolt and other plug ins are just examples for the aren't side since they are selling , and aren't limited in region by refueling infrastructure.

There are a couple of threads specifically on the Bolt in the GM/Chevy forum here.

 

as long as Toyota can spin it as being green - does it even matter to Toyota?
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of course, that's why they make the best hybrid in the world.

 

Edit/double post

 

nice edit.

 

Its in Australia far from the Japanese customers. They are calling it green coal.

I think it would matter if it was in Tokyo as people would see the ships and trains unload large piles of coal to turn in their hydrogen. I'm sure they would take solar hydrogen if only the government will pay a little more to make it. Its the ultamate eco car, it can even turn brown coal green

They are building renewable fuel cells in Connecticut too. They run on natural gas, but through the magic of the state labeling it as green and renewable it has become renewable. Aren't words wonderful.

 

To some it matters to the point that plug ins shouldn't be available or get incentives in states where they emit more carbon than an ICE Prius, and that is the reason why Toyota never rolled the Prius Plug In nationwide in the US.

Just wondering if that holds true when they look at Toyota's stance on hydrogen in Japan, or are they satisfied with the accounting; the carbon is emitting in Australia, but not Japan in regards to the coal.

 

I don't believe that was Toyota's reason. If it were, they never would have said there would be a nationwide roll-out in the first place.
I suspect the only reason Toyota didn't roll out nationwide is they felt they didn't need to to get the CARB credits.

 

[quote ]".... Repeatedly studies have shown even if the electricity comes from coal, electric cars are cleaner than gasoline....." [/QUOTE]
The coal-powered EV myth; Electricity is only as clean as the method to generate it | The Long Tail Pipe

This isn't the 1st article to controvert how clean/dirty electricity from coal is, compared to the ice car, nor is it the only article, nor is it the best ....
That said, I wonder how clean the coal has to be - or how dirty the prius has to be, in order for coal fired electricity to be the winner.

Ironically the Coal Fired grid was built for your Coal Fired toaster & Coal Fired air conditioner, etc ... yet the penalty only seems to give rise when the plug is hooked into an automobile. (scratching head)
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There have been no, zero, zilch new coal plants being built for EVs in america. In the states where they sell the best coal is being shut down while renewables are growing. If you were to weight electricity production to where it is consumed by plug-in vehicles it is much lower than the 39% national average of coal (eia 2014). I don't think the claim that plug-ins run mostly on coal has even an ounce of truth.

That is different than the plan for Japan to build new coal plants in australia to power fcv in japan.
Nocookies | The Australian
Here people that fill up in stations with hydrogen from those ships will be running on new 100% coal infrastructure. We can call it "green" by sequestering most of the carbon dioxide, but it still contributes to air and water pollution.

I don't see any being imported into japan today. Are you referring to this plan to make ammonia from solar, and ship it to japan to make electricity? I don't thin that will really end up in fuel cell vehicles.
Company aims to capture Pilbara sunlight in hydrogen, ship it to Japan - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

In other fuel cell news for america.... toyota has slowed devliveries so that customers will have stations. Lentz Tells Some Dealers Don’t Deliver Mirai | Alternative (EVs, HEVs, FCVs) content from WardsAuto

Note every single one of the renewable stations planned to be retail in 2015 is late and not available today.

Honda may have an easier go at it as they are only promising hundreds of fuel cell cars in the US by the end of 2017. The 3000 promised by toyota may get pushed into 2018.

Here in Lentz on cheap gas and good mirai sales from past interview.
Lentz: Cheap Gas Shouldn’t Harm Mirai, Prius; 2015 Sales Up Slightly | Industry content from WardsAuto

 

i agree with lentz. mirai sales will stand on their own, with no outside influencing factors.

 

Absolutely they will.
The problem is, owners of Mirai want them to roll, not stand.

 

No surprise there, GM failed at doing their homework. Were you expecting Volts to be flying off the lots. Here a hint, a LOT of Chevy dealers are saying the same as Kelly is saying in your article.

Go figure.

DBCassidy

 

But, they had these "special" ignition switches.

DBCassidy

 

oh there you go . . . being all rational . . . but not only is america beating the Tesla via tesla . . . . now Tesla wants to beat itself (ok - that sounded a bit creapy ) via the Model X and the Model 3. Nothing better than being in competition with your self.
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If you are gong to burn coal in a 50+ year old power plant and feed that to your car, and they will build more coal plants with 1960s technology to fuel your plug-in car, it never can get as clean as a prius Of course we are not build 50 year old coal plants, and counter to the vinod khosla plug-ins are not running on 100% coal. Now you could build a new coal plant like they are doing in midland texas - convert the NOx to fertalizer, convert the SO2 to sulfuric acid capture most of the carbon dioxide and use it to recover oil, and you get cleaner than a prius. We won't build many of those plants because they cost a lot more per kwh than a fast cycling ccgt natural gas plant, and those powering plug-ins are cleaner than a prius. The one in midland is mainly a proof of concept and heavily subsidized by tax dollars, just in case we need to build more of them in the future if renewables don't work out, and natural gas gets expensive.

You don't think free fuel is an outside influencing factor? Mirai sales are much lower than toyota estimated in the US, partially due to problems with it costing more money to keep building all those free fueling stations.

 

i have no idea, how old is my quote?

 

January, this year. My point was rather to ridicule lentz's earlier quote from 11/14. While he is correct low gas prices have nothing to do with mirai leases in 2015 or 2016, they are bad because - the infrastructure sucks. The problem is longer term with lower gas prices, the reason for the government to increase the roughly $300M in hydrogen station funding currenlty allocated is low. They snuck some extra federal money in the budget this year, but low gas prices make it harder to prime the pump. Lentz thought prius customers would move to the mirai, but with low gas prices and much better phevs, why not stick with hybrid or plug-in.

California in July of last year said that by the end of 2018 infrastructure would have a hard time supplying 12,000 fcv in the US. By that time the tesla model 3 will be out and the bmw 330e. The person with $499/mo to pay for a lease that wants cool tech is going to buy one of those instead of the mirai. The guy that is looking toward green is going to buy one of those and solar or wind over the mirai. If gas or electricity were really expensive the free subsidized hydrogen might move people to the mirai, but it can't now.

Granted electricity is expensive on the east coast, but infrastructure there is even worse than california. Musk already has admitted low gas prices will probably hurt model 3 sales. Those have nation wide refueling. How is toyota going to get the government in the US to commit tens of billions more for hydrogen stations if oil is cheap. Japan is a different matter. That government is much more influenced by toyota and honda, and they have the olympics coming up, so I expect that the cost over runs to build stations will just be added to the budget deficit over there. Maybe if in 2025 their are breakthroughs in fuel cells, and gas gets expensive in the US, hydrogen has a chance of getting high levels of hydrogen cash. Mirai, Clarity II, tucson, are probably relagated to a 10,000 vehicle test in the US for the next 5 years. There will be no volume if gas prices are low.

 

therein lies a profound dynamic ...... cheap carbon fossil fuel is essential for a "fat-chance-in-hell" probability that hydrogen car production can go anywhere. Cheap carbon fossil fuel is essential to keep our manufacturing - economy moving forward. But the oil industry doesn't like selling their goods on the cheap. so in their world, you have to get rid of the competition. This is not just some conspiracies notion;
The Kochs Are Plotting A Multimillion-Dollar Assault On Electric Vehicles
Too many plugins may someday decrease use of a carbon commodity that might otherwise cost a boat load. On the other hand, a hydrogen car that uses fossil fuels is no threat to big oil at all, because the only cheap way to run it in the foreseeable future is on fossil fuels. I see the oil industry LOVING fuel cell tech - and they certainly don't care if it's a domestic or foreign produced ride. The fight is far from over.
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