Featured Hyundai IONIQ - Prius competitor?

An interesting aspect of this discussion, at least to me, that one writer mentioned just recently in one of the PriusChat threads, is the assertion that Toyota is making an effort to enlarge the appeal for the Prius beyond fuel efficiency. I think even to the extent of diminished emphasis on efficiency. I'm sure that is true with respect to styling and handling. I'm assuming increased performance would be a goal, and hopefully ergonomics, safety, fit and finish, and road noise. I trust that reliability will remain a corporate achievement.

 

I'm working from home today. Let my dog lead me to the close taco place by the greenbelt at lunch time. There was a new Model X parked there next a gen II prius. Also in the lot were a highlander and landcruiser. The X stood out as I haven't seen one "in the wild" here yet, and it looks quite different from the S. The landcruiser stood out more, not many V8 guzzlers that aren't sports sedans around here. Lots of teslas and prii. Outside the tesla SUV, the fastest car in the lot was a bmw 335i. Those turbo 6s pack the power of old v8s, and I'm sure it gets twice the gas milage as that land cruiser. Then again I wouldn't take a bmw off road

No one in texas would dare call a golf a sports car. Not many diesels around here outside of pick up and larger trucks and busses. most of the old mercedes have been converted to biodiesel. A neighbor has an a3 tdi, but he was shamed after the vw fiasco, I feel bad for him.

I don't think europe is the place for the ioniq. For texas its a little underpowered but in a city full of fixed gear bicycles, speed is relative.

 

which version are you referencing - regular hybrid or plug-in version? The reason I ask is because if the owner has the option on the phev to choose between a blending of the ice & traction pack (vs using all the ev up front via the gen 1 volt method - where the entire traction pack will 1st be depleted) that will make a huge difference in what your reference point is.
.

 

felt, that was excellent!

 

No. My car has no weaknesses I can find.

 

There's a new Hybrid called Kia Nero coming out soon .
It a kind of SUV-Hybrid .
It has a 105 hp petrol engine and a 44 Kw electric motor,a li-polymer battery,a 6 gear DCT and 152 combined system power !
Does that ring a bell ?
This sounds exactly like the hybrid system that is used in the Ioniq .
Journalists had a chance to drive it and said it was very responsive and fun to drive,but unlike the HSD system Toyota uses,it charges the hybrid battery at traffic light stops or any other stop .
Maybe that's the reason why it won't beat the Prius efficiency in city driving !
If that's the way the hybrid system works on Hyundai or Kia,I must say I like Toyotas system way better !
I love the silence in a Prius at a traffic light or in a traffic jam !

 

It must shut down when the traction pack is full though - right?
.

 

na, it keeps running to power the cars around you. it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. they're selling like hotcakes!

 

That is the kia sister CUV of the inoique. That means its probably 35kw motor like the ioniq not 44 KW. We do have a guestimate of 5700 rpm for peak hp on the nero. That means it should have at least 96 hp (assuming 5200 is past max torque) at the gen III prius max of 5200.

Yep any differences in hybrid or phev should be mistakes for sister hyundai and kia vehicles.

Those journalists probably just were clueless. All prius, ioniq, and nero should charge from regen braking and use MGs to recharge by setting engine power high and sending some power to the battery.

The difference in city should be down to rolling resistance and transmission efficiecy. going from 0-20 in a cvt should simply be more efficient then a step transmission even a dct. I don't expect huge numbers. In the sonata versus camry hybrids the sonata uses 10% on the city test, the camry 10% on the highway. The dct should be more efficient than the step transmission in the sonata, so I expect less of a difference on city and prius gen IV. The nero is larger and less aerodynamic than the ioniq. It should get the worst mpg than both of the other two, but provide more cargo room and a more upright tall driving position.[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

What is that little red car/van pulled up under the tree?

I wouldn't be opposed to an engine power or displacement tax on cars in the US. Our midsize family sedans now are faster than many of the pony cars from their heyday.

I disagree that making the Prius appeal to a larger audience was at the expense of emphasis on fuel economy. They are simply coming up against the wall of what a car powered solely by an ICE, which all non-plug in hybrids are, and remains functional for a family are capable of in terms of fuel efficiency. The big gains for the gen3 were making the ICE more efficient with a wider efficient power range, the 'sweet spot'. It is the same with the gen4.

The Eco trim is just the base car applying some basic ecomodder alterations; lower rolling resistant tires with higher pressures and reducing weight. Some of the more extreme ecomodders out there have deleted the front wipers in addition to the rear one on their rides.

The HSD will charge to battery at stops if it is depleted far enough, too. So I wouldn't read too much into what auto writers experienced during a preview drive that likely also included hammering the accelerator and depleting the battery faster than what most of us civilians will do with the car.

 

Fiat Panda (this one). Similar to one of the most common cars - Fiat Punto.

Engine specifications for Panda:
1242 cm3, 69 HP at 5500 rpm
Max torque: 102 Nm (10.4 kgm) at 3000 rpm
Top speed: 164 km/h
Acceleration 0-100 km/h: 14.2 sec.
Consumption (mpg) - fuelly.com: 38mpg

This is just about an average car for this part of the Europe. Nobody will tell you that it's slow. It's average.
To a driver of a car like that a Prius would look like a luxury car, esp. the interior:



I know that you guys like to bash the interior of the cars, but this is what people are quite used to in here.

One more common car interior from Renault Megane 2014 (fully loaded):


So IMHO, Prius has quite a nice interior IMHO.
I'm afraid that Ioniq won't even me seriously marketed in Europe - same as Opel Ampera (Volt) wasn't while it was on sale. Except for enthusiasts nobody even know what Ampera is, or has even seen one.

Ioniq will probably specifically tailored for the US market since US customers spend the most money on of all nations on cars and are the most open-minded (after Japanese) in regards to hybrids.

 

This is similar to the geo metro (I belive it was a suzuki on some other countries) in the US in the 1990s. Safety regulations in the US killed it as a cheap car. These safety requirements now make our entry cars heavy compared to european or japanese cars and more expensive. Car and Driver tested an old one against the gen III prius, and by pushing each got the same mpg ;-) Of course the metro could not be pushed, and given the price of entry....

Yes but compare it to an audi and ....
We have hp taxes
gas taxes
etc in europe. Without these things middle america can afford higher horsepower cars. I'd be for higher gas taxes and pollution charges, but to me the hp restrictions seem counter productive. If a higher hp hybrid is safer and uses less gas, why tax it more?

Probably a reason reanault no longer is sold in the US.

Yet the prius sells poorly in europe ;-) I agree I don;t think the ioniq is bound for europe. If you are targetting prius market share it is not in europe.

Korea, US, and China. It's home market, and the biggest car markets in the world. If you aren't German its hard to make money selling cars in Europe. Even Toyota which does great in the US, only has about a 5% market share, and the hybrids it sells in europe it doesn't even try to sell in the US.

 

The Chevy Spark and Mitsibishi Mirage are probaby the closest the US market has to the Panda. There is the smart fortwo and Scion/Toyota iQ, but the Panda appears to have more of a back seat with some cargo space.

The 1.4L we get in the Spark produces 98hp@6200rpm and does 0 to 60mph in 11sec. I wouldn't call it slow, but I learned to drive manual on a 1980 diesel(no turbo) Rabbit. I'd be driving a Spark right now if a $3000 rebate offer could have been applied to one.

The timing of that offer meant I couldn't get a Sonic with the brick red interior I wanted. The stereo of the Panda looks dated, and I don't have the infotainment stereo upgrade, but the rest is fine for me. I'd like more contrasting colors or textures, but don't get the fascination with soft plastics. They are nice on the steering wheel, and I guess the armrest if you use it, but otherwise they add cost, weight, with harder recyclibility for little to no benefit otherwise.

The only hybrids that seem to sell well in Europe are those that avoid the import tax. If the Ioniq is smaller than the Prius and does that, it might have a chance there.

 

Here is the real explanation from Jalopnik why the US doesn't get much cars from outside of US (and market protection too, IMHO):
A Simple Explanation Why America Doesn't Get European Hatchbacks

And actually, EU safety standards are stricter. That's the usually mentioned reason for the higher price of cars in Europe.

You can't actually register a car that has a dented bumper or that has different tires than manufacturer recommended, etc. I see you guys over there can register pretty much everything (even cars with rollcages!).

Not sure how you 'avoid import tax'. Not even sure that is possible.

 

One that is a bloggers explanation,but close to the truth. Anywhere you read redit as a source you should hold your nose for a lot that is wrong. Insurance regulation is largely responsable for keeping out many of the european cars. Ford/BMW/Mercedes/VW/GM though sucessfully build world cars that are mostly the same for all markets but with slight differences such as bumpers, airbags, and head lights which all have different regulatons. The bumper regulation is responsable for more US size and weight on common designed cars.

Ralph Nader is credited or cursed for lots of the US regulations. Some more indepth if you care to read.
http://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/safety/us-european-cars-show-safety-differences-in-crashes
Episode 533: Why Cars From Europe and the US Just Can't Get Along : Planet Money : NPR

But yes the smaller lighter cheaper euro cars aren't going to meet us safety regulations. Until Euro 6 the euro pollution regulations wouldn't pass US emissions. Even after vw cheated. If you listen to NPR all the auto companies would have common standards. US and EU may get one list for a global trade deal. Most of the regulations have nothing to do with safety, some has to do with cultural differences. NPR pointed out that europeans wear seatbelts at a higher percentage than americans, so those small cars don't need to protect stupid drivers to protect the driver. That requires bigger air bags, padded dashes, larger bumpers, that are more expensive and heavier. VW would rather deesign for belted driver and passengers, but US congress wants to design for people that don't buckle up. This changes dash and other things as well as airbags. Still if they had a standard for both it may not add much to european costs, and would make export easier.

Here in many states you can register with a dented bumper that does not affect safety, but in texas if it affects safety you need to fix it on an anual inspection. Different stats have different regs, and many like california have no safety inspections at all.

US doesn't have tarrifs for most countries on cars. Europe does. To avoid import taxes in europe you need to manufacture in europe. American and Japanese car companies manufacture there. The US ones have been losing a lot of money lately just like the french and italian companies. The germans seem to do well.

 

Nice points austingreen.
That might be the reason why Prius is so much more expensive in Europe. European prius is made in Japan, and as with every item that is brought over the border there is VAT and import tax. E.g. If you buy a Laptop from China for 599$ and ship it to Croatia, you would need to pay 25% VAT and 20% import tax and if that model doesn't already exist on the market you would need to pay 50$ to register it => that laptop would cost you 868$ in the end. It's probably similar with cars and car costs.

As for seatbelts, that's also a new thing for me. Here you have to wear a seatbelt front and back or get a 50$ fine (and very strict about that too). Also, all newer cars start beeping if you go over 13mph and you are not buckled in (there are weight sensors in each seat of the Prius that detects if there is a person sitting there). It doesn't stop beeping until you buckle in or stop completely and shut the car down. It won't even stop if you put it into park :/. And since it's the same beep as the reverse beep, just faster, it is very irritating.

So to get back on topic:
Even if Hyundai will sell Ioniq for 19500$ (rumors) in US, it will cost ton more in EU because of import taxes. I doubt they will produce it in europe so

 

+1

Yes prius needs to go through european airbags, bumpers, headlights, and evaporative emissions. They don't sell that many, so they hike the price. Then they add the import tax, and it is a lot more in Europe than the US. Ioniq will probably be the same. No wonder the auris, which would not sell as well in the US, does better in Europe. It already has all those european modifications, and its assembled in europe.

It was about 71% in 2001 in the US. All the cars beep here just like europe, but they stop eventually, or people can get someone to turn off the alarm. Toyota turned off my back up beep for me, but won't turn off the seat belt beep In texas its a $100-$200 fineto the driver if a driver or passenger is not wearing a seat belt. . Seatbelt use was 87% in 2013 according to safety agency NHTSA. IMHO maybe those 13% deserve the darwin award, and we can design cars for the 87% in the US and higher percent in Europe.

If the car companies sat down with a bunch of medical professionals, I'm sure they could come up with a standard as safe as today, that worked in Europe and the US and cost less to implement. The room is filled with lawyers and politicians instead of engineers and medical professionals, but maybe they will figure it out.

In europe yes, in the US no. Why is the public good helped by restricting hp? I can understand safety, tail pipe emissions, and oil consumption are public goods, but why is low hp?

In europe can't you just tax rich people more as we do badly in america. The super rich here have special tax loopholes :-( to pay a lower percentage.

 

I think New Hampshire is the only US state that doesn't have some kind of seat belt law, and our cars also beep at those that don't wear a seat belt. My 70 year old father buckles his belt because of it, but puts the shoulder strap under his arm. I think seat belt use will increase with time in the states, but our regulations were written when it was lower.