2016 Toyota Prius Technical & Package Information

I would think base metals prices are low right now. But could have been higher when Toyota was deciding batteries. We know from Prii that the NiMH fails suddenly at end of life. So far I am not hearing that Lithium batteries fail like that. Was FORD Escape Li Ion? Any FORD batts failing?

Bottom line the autos are not talking much about batteries, so we don't know too much as usual. I do not necessarily agree that Li batts are getting cheap, rather I feel the autos are not taking their normal mark-up on EV's. That's probably part of the reason Toyota does not like EV right now.

 

The cost discussed is what the car manufacturer will pay for the pack cells.
Li-ion has a wider range of usable kWh than NiMH, for long life. How much longer or shorter that life is than NiMH is going to come down to the individual hybrids. Considering the negative press Honda got over their NiMH problems, and warranty periods, I believe the manufacturers are going to be careful with the Li-ion life. There hasn't been a major problem with the chemistry in cars at this point, and second generation hybrids using it are coming out.

Of course they cost less for Toyota at this point, but when it comes to reducing the hybrid premium, every cent will help. Toyota is starting to invest into Li-ion like they did with NiMH.

And I think it is safe to say you found no evidence of NiMH cells for hybrids dropping in cost.
The AA/AAA cells are for a completely different market. Hybrids don't use them though. The C size they use isn't even available in stores next to the AA/AAA here. If a hybrid was still using the off the shelf cylinderical cell, it would increase cost by requiring a cooling system for the pack. The cells hybrids use are use specific as far as I know.

The Escape was NiMH; IIRC, cylindrical with auxiliary cooling from the AC system. Ford switched to Li-ion with the second generation Fusion hybrid and C-max. Honda went with Li-ion with their IMA replacement systems. I can't think of anybody else using NiMH.

Hyundai has had a hybrid with Li-ion out the longest in North America. The gen2 Sonata hybrid comes out as a 2016 model.

When I said nickel costs more, I really meant that it is a rarer resource than lithium.

The projected cost drop for Li-ion was 7% per year back when the Volt and Leaf first came to market. The actual drop as 8% or higher year to year.

 

Honda had a lot of trouble with NiMh IMA battery failures within the warranty period. Toyota extended HV battery life by limiting the SOC range (not below 40% - preventing cell reversals due to imbalanced cells, not above 80% - limiting heat generation).

The difference in the useful SOC range is not directly due to battery chemistry. A Battery Maintenance System (BMS) that maintains the balance of series strung cells is more practical with Lion than with NiMh (more cells in series with 1.2 v/cell than with 3.2 v/cell), having a workable BMS extends the life of a traction battery while allowing a wider SOC range.

JeffD

 

The Civic Hybrid battery was physically much smaller, methinks way overtaxed. The heart of the battery is some "sticks", roughly akin to stacks of D-Cells in a bundle, maybe a dozen in total?

Honda was generous enough to spring for replacement cost for our in-the-family one, when it FINALLY displayed a code, out of warranty. But we had to put up with about 3 years of walking-wounded performance before that happened, during the warranty.

 

...the Li Ion cells are 1.2V? or is that NiMH?

 

The volts/cell is determined by the chemistry involved. NiMh cells are 1.2 v/cell (we have 6 in series in each of our 28 modules). Lion varies from 3.2 v/cell (LiFePo - safe chemistry) to 3.6 v/cell Straight Lion (there be danger here, thermal runaway).

JeffD

 

With hybrid battery $/kWh is meaningless it's $/kW without "h" that counts. There are no 200 $/kWh li-ion cels in a hybrid battery and they won't be for a very very long time, because those cells can be charged/discharged at only around 1-2 C rate, hybrid battery must cope with 20 C rate.

 

Also, while it may appear the battery "fails suddenly", no it doesn't. It just fails to our notice when a module no longer works properly and the system detects that. Any battery failure will appear to be sudden, but it is just that the performance dropoff finally is detectable by the HSD, causing the owner to go to the dealer, who then does the measurement that tells them it needs to be replaced. If the owner had gone in months earlier it would probably have been detected by the measurement, even though the HSD wasn't noticing the problem.

Statistically, the LiION battery may be more reliable than an equivalent NiMH, because it has less than half the number of cells. Fewer parts usually translate into higher reliability. -IF- the battery is really ready for the real world. It probably is, but you catch my drift?

There are so many lithium chemistries available now it's hard to keep up with them. The ones that "burst into flames" have a built in problem. The fuel -and- the oxidizer are both inside. It just takes heat to get them to combine! Wonderful!!
The lithium iron phosphate ones are used a lot now in replacement parts for ATVs, motorcycles, and snowmobiles. Less weight, less maintenance, much greater "cool factor". I have one sitting in the house waiting for a car battery to fail (12V). 18 A-Hr, size of a video cassette, easily held for long periods of time in one hand.

I don't think I've seen exactly what chemistry Toyota is using. Anyone?

 

So NimH are reducing costs...

 

I don't get modern option packaging--not just Toyota.

So why is it that TSS (which I want) is standard on the 4T, but on the 4 you HAVE to get it with the moonroof, which I don't.
But if I thought of myself as a Touring kind of driver, I probably would want a moonroof, but couldn't get it on the 4T. So I should buy the 4T?
But I don't want 17" wheels, because I hear that more unsprung weight decreases mileage.

And if they're going to do the 3 and 3T with a spare and the 4 and 4T with no spare, why don't they just give everybody a choice--do you want the spare tire module or not?

And don't tell me its to make assembly cheaper--unless I'm mistaken, the equipment for each car is programmed into a computer and much of the assembly is done by robot.

 

agreed, it''s all about profit. they want you to buy something you don't want, to get something you do want. think cable tv.

 

if they sold only package Two, and everything else was an option, how would the epa look at it?

 

Know the cost of the Advanced Technology Package?

 

welcome! i don't, but it might be in the pricing thread.

 

Someone Said $1935, but I haven't seen the pricing listed anywhere else, and the same person wrongly quoted other pricing.

 

disco - Why are you on this thread? You should be watching the Patriot's.

Hope your Thanksgiving was good.

 

multi tasking. same to you!

 

14-zip.

 

...never say that again until end of game...that'll teach you