GM says Fuel Cell cost coming down

Nice to see the advances continue!

 

As low as 10-grams would start to get as low as some cat converters re: platinum content, although apparently cat converters can go to palladium as a back-up when Pt cost is high

 

I like their test project with the army.
As far as durability testing goes, not much can beat that.
Centralized refueling means that not many hydrogen stations need to be built and very exacting documentation will be easier to get than with the general public.

I hope they are testing stationary storage as well.

 

Time to put it into production. Stop sitting on the patents and let the competitors lead.

 

You probably didn't read. GM doesn't think its fuel cell design is ready for commercial production. This army contract is cost plus, so they make money no matter what. You know, gm doesn't think they are good enough to make 20,000 fcv/year like people decided was a failure for the volt. They and honda are working on a new design that will use what both companies have learned, but that takes time. Think around 2020 or a little later according to this press release.

Even then they don't think they will be there for commercial production. Both companies are talking about a few thousand per year total for both. That is only the 2017 estimated mirai production. This is still a demo quantity, not commercial. They will sell these as part of their compliance with regulators. Its the next one. The fuel cells and vehicles around 2025, that they think they might be able to get to 2012 volt quantity. You know the quantity that some say proved no one wanted them.

Toyota is talking commercial quantity around 2020. If they do it, they will be 5 years ahead of honda and toyota. I don't think gm will care if they are only 5 years behind. If toyota fails, then gm will be happy that it stopped some of the fuel cell bleeding. Spending so much on fuel cell R&D in the 2000s helped push them to bankdrupcy. Its money on fuel cells they didn't spend on hybrids. They don't want to go back to those bad old days.

 

US government is giving GM more money for it to catch up with the Japanese. Don't put any Japanese tech in, make your own, for perception that US isn't behind in technology.

This is exactly why I think Honda-GM partnership wouldn't work.

The use of H2 for recon may be an indicator that BEV isn't up to the task.

So, Army doesn't want to charge the battery?

It seems to be saying hydrogen is more practical.

 

All the Japanese are using North American invented technology. Yep the US government is pouring more good money after bad in supporting fuel cells. No disagreement with me there. GM and Honda are sharing costs and US and Japanese government money to make their fuel cells better. Toyota is sharing costs with BMW and they get German and Japanese government money. US invented the Fuel cell. Canadians advanced it. No one yet has been able to figure out how to make money off of it without it being tax payer money. Maybe in the future.

Why? They have the most patents, the most miles of R&D, a cross over, midsize car, fork lifts, and military vehicles. The clarity gen II looks ahead of the mirai, even without the gm money and patents. I would say wait until 2021 and see what Honda/GM do against Toyota/BMW, and mercedes/ford/nissan. I expect only toyota will attempt commercial quanitites, but like the eq, they may look out and delay, or ... if toyota suceeds, I expect one of the other groups to succeed also. .If honda/gm partnership produces better fuel cells they would also likely make it in US millitary vehicles.

BEV is not up to the task for this military vehicle, the replacement of the humvee. This is a thirsty vehicle that will need to be refueled on the battle front. The bulk of them will be diesel, and will generate a lot of electricity. One requirement of this vehicle is the ability to generate electricity for the micro-grid set up during a war. A phev would also be possible in this task.

The military also likes plug-ins for other tasks. The LA Airforce base is going 100% plug-in for on base vehicles other than aircraft. These will work in a V2G application where batteries in the vehicles are used with other power sources to test working as a separate micro-grid to power the base if the grid power goes out.

 

Sounds like GM -, taking the "laggard" approach. They ill never learn - same old, same old.

DBCassidy

 

Toyota has some of their own learning to do. Toyota, the GM of the 21st century, I'm afraid.

 

What does that mean?

Toyota is leading the way with hybrids for the masses.

They are also investing in diversification with fuel-cells.

 

Hybrid tech germinated in the 20th century. They've ridden those coattails for almost 2 decades now. The FCV push requiring gobs of public monies with so many technical breakthroughs still needed is what I would call foolhardy "diversification."

 

Plug-in hybrids (available at your local dealership) and lithium chemistries are still quite new, so are some technologies for combustion engines, like direct injection. Trying label something as old to downplay it won't work. You can't just turn a blind-eye to the heavy investment still taking place with traditional vehicles either.

Also, notice where the oil industry is currently? The long time-span we enjoyed of relative stability is gone. A time of unpredictability has begun. We've arrived at the so-called "peak" everyone worried about. There's plenty of oil still, but getting it to consumers is a chaotic mess. There's missing & aging infrastructure. New pipelines will need to be built. We have no choice.

Are we really going to ride the coattails of the 20th century with oil, repeating another 4 decades of what contributed to a planet now dealing with climate change? Wouldn't it make a whole lot more sense switching to a fuel that can be generated using renewable energy?

We know that EV won't work for everyone. There are apartments & condos which clearly cannot accommodate plugging in. There are also countless old neighborhoods with detached garages and exposed power-lines that simply won't be able to handle the addition of large quantities of level-2 chargers. There's the reality that the oil industry won't give up without a fight too.

There will not be a single solution for all. Having fuel-cell vehicles co-exist with electric-only vehicle will happen.

 

Everything else in this country seems to rapidly change over a 25-35 year time span but it's "cannot" and "won't be able to" when it comes to making some modest service upgrades with 20th century technology to the garage areas of some older buildings?

I think you are being overly pessemistic here. This isn't going to require any R&D breakthroughs.

 

The old neighborhoods with well established trees still suffer every winter when we get ice. The detached garages along allies have wires strung up all over the place and no budget for replacement... nor any interest in digging up yards for laying cable.

That's realistic, not pessimistic.

 

No one knows what will happen as a result of low gas prices.

The pressure to update old oil infrastructure and the need to compete will contribute to an uncertain outcome.

There's the reality of climate-change too. It's undeniable at this point and we have a variety of technologies available to address it.

 

I'll go all wild and crazy and will predict: gas tax increases.

 

The US isn't behind; Bloomenergy is a US company. GM led in FCEVs, and they would be the leader now if FCEVs actually came to market when their proponents were predicting. For all we know, Toyota can be using expired GM patents in their fuel cells.

Military requirements aren't always an indication of what the private sector needs. Many military vehicles are shielded against EMPs, but being able to operate after a nuclear attack isn't of prime concern for personal cars.