Featured 2016 Chevy Volt Attack Ads target LEAF, Prius!

The greater risk is attempting to deliver a design that doesn't rely on a large battery-pack.

Doing more with less is a major challenge... and absolutely essential when the goal is a product for the masses.

 

This isn't clear yet. I personally suspect this is a jc08 Japanese test cycle number meaning it would be EPA rated closer to 20-25 miles. It's all rumors at this point. Toyota has not officially disclosed any battery capacity or EV range estimates for the next generation Prius Plug-in.

 

Actually making a vehicle battery using Lithium Ion was a greater challenge. Back when I still owned my Prius I distinctly recall when GM announced the Volt would use Li-ion. Its been a few years but I remember the reaction from Toyota was that putting such batteries in a car was a bad idea. The reason of course is that Li-Ion is prone to overheating. But what GM did- along with Tesla, BMW and others using that chemistry was to use a liquid cooling system for those batteries. That basically does the trick. The new Volt battery is actually more dense and lighter than the previous generation.

 

Prius PHV already uses lithium. The 7-seat version of Prius does too.

The reason Toyota thought it was a bad idea long ago was cost. It was too expensive then for mainstream use.

 

You mean it "also" has Lithium since the PIP came out over 2 years after the Volt did and yet only goes 10-11 miles because the battery is teeny. Its also only about $3k less than the Volt. So there you have it. A car that goes 1/4th the distance on the battery, costs basically almost the same and only came out with li-ion after GM did so.

 

Heavy emphasis on range and disregard for tax-credit dependency. That hasn't proven a wise business move. Same old argument points...

What's different with gen-2 that will overcome sales barriers of the past?

 

Toyota is, or was, heavily invested into NiMH. They did so in order to get the cost for themselves low. So the cost of Li-ion is a higher increase for them. NiMH has hit its low point in cost though, and lithium batteries are still dropping in cost. Now, the chemistries are close in cost, with probably Toyota the only one paying less for NiMH than Li-ion.

 

... I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at. As of this month so far the New Volt and its sales have been fantastic. The main reason the old Volt didn't sell as well was A: Poor advertising and a poor explanation of how it works and B: Its initial price. The new Volt is now both cheaper and their new ad campaigns are doing a much better job.

But either way the main point I was getting at and I will stick with is that Toyota is and has been way too conservative with the Prius with regards to its improvements in range and efficiency. The Prius we owned was the first generation to arrive at the US which was based on a 1997 initial Japan-Only model release. We routinely got 47-50 MPG easily in it. Fast-forward to now and my Mom owns a 2012 Prius V and though its far nicer than the 2002 we owned before it basically gets around 55 MPG... a overall 5 MPG improvement in 10 years. Toyota was smart by being first to the market with a hybrid and for YEARS they were the only game in town. They name "Prius" is more or less synonymous with the term "Hybrid". With that I believe has caused the company to rest for too long on their laurels. Even after buying our used Volt 2 years ago it seemed like I would see 5X's as many PIP before I saw another Volt, which I found amazing given the significantly different ranges the Volt and first gen Prius had. But it comes to show the power of brand loyalty.

But Toyotas needs to step it up and take more chances because they aren't the only game in town and the competition is at this point pulling ahead. Keep in mind I say this as someone who was a very early adopter of the Prius and back then I very much felt the same with regard to that car...

 

So, your assertion is that aggressive (quite vague, please clarify) will achieve high-volume profitable sales?

The competition is traditional vehicles... Camry, Corolla, etc... not other plug-in vehicles.

 

Backup for just a sec. Let's just stick to some basic math. As I've mentioned I have owned both a Prius and a Volt. Have you? But anyway I've had real-life experience with both cars.

Let's put this into perspective. My old Prius would go- as stated- 47-50MPG. I have a rather long commute and thus I filled it exactly once a week which at the time I found to be amazing.

The 4 year old Volt I now own will go right at 40 miles to work where I plug it in ( for free BTW) and then drive all the way home. So I charge it once on my own dime. The cost to charge the car runs at right around 65 cents, or around 1/5th the cost of the avg. cost of a gallon of gas in California where I live. The gas is used occasionally. After 2 years the average is about 1/3rd the cost of ownership costs over the old Prius. That is a signifigant delta... you see? I'm not sure what you were asserting but I can tell you my only concern are the concrete results of vehicle ownership.

The new Volt has been out for less than a month and already it is selling well. In the land of retail its about the combination of advertising, price, technology, desirability, practicality and demand. If the Volt is selling well then that's all that matters... correct?

Now- if Toyota were to offer a similar product with a similar range then perhaps I would be interested. But they don't have such a product and thus that isn't a choice.

And maybe I misunderstood you when you said that "The competition isn't other plugins" ... was that with regard to the Prius or Volt? nevermind in either case that makes no sense from a market segment perspective.

 

And don't forget one astonishing Volt advantage over the PiP. GM actually makes and sells the vehicle. Try buying a PiP in Florida or Texas...or most other states.

 

FL, I see you have a 2001. Same as the one we had! Good little cars. The best thing was the turning radius because we could turn that thing around on a single lane road. Not bad to service either. I could change the oil in 10 minutes flat. The transaxle fluid wasn't that hard either.

 

That is because those 39 states will get the 2017.

 

Market "segment" indicates the vehicle will remain a niche, certainly not what's been expected for gen-2 vehicles. Look at the fleet, not just a single offering.

Taking on mainstream vehicles is a far greater challenge, especially when trying to accomplish that without a $7,500 assist.

Remember, the goal is to replace, not create a new segment. That means having to face the reality of sales volume much, much higher than with gen-1... an entire magnitude more. 2,035 monthly is nothing. The popular cars sell over 10 times that many and without a tax-credit. They are the true competition.

 

Also have a 2010 and son has a 2007. The interior and Aluminum Wheels of the 2001 is also the best of the three generations. Obviously the improved MPG of the later Prius generations was significantly better, but for a around town butt-hauler, it's still hard to beat.

 

So far nothing that you have mentioned has much of any bearing on what I have said nor really makes any sense. Sorry. But I will summarize the bare-bones obvious. The Volt is in fact competition for the Prius. They both now have similar pricing. That is where that distinction ends since the Volt now has a far greater EV range overall. As a former Prius owner I will repeat what I have said a few times already: Toyota needs to step it up. Period.

 

First, COST is very, very different from PRICE.

As for disregard for the objective of replacing traditional vehicles with low-emission, high-efficiency choices, there is no cross-automaker debate. Other plug-in vehicles are not the competition, they are allies helping with the shift away from polluting & guzzling.

GM is competing with itself. Volt gen-1 lost countless customers to vehicles like Malibu, Cruze, and Equinox. Does GM's gen-2 miss that same opportunity?

 

This is all very silly. I doubt many customers are seriously deciding between the 2016 Volt and a 2016 Cruze. Some may compare with a 2016 Prius but most buyers will be comparing between a Volt and another plugin. They'll be the customers ready to make a big switch away from gasoline or diesel.

While the tax credit and local rebates persist, the Volt is in the same general price range as a Prius for some folks. After the credits end there will be a significant price gap. Volt and other plugin cars (and Prius to some extent) will not really be price competitive without a sizable credit for another decade as battery and component prices drop and taxes on low-mpg vehicles (direct and via climate change gas tax increases) flatten the playing field again.

In the meantime, there are plenty of future potential customers willing to switch from other $30,000+ cars to plugin for the nicer driving experience, especially lower operating costs in some regions, and the joy of being part of the move away from petroleum and other fossil fuels. This should supply plenty of customers for continued strong plugin segment growth. New technology takes time to gain broad market acceptance and this time around we don't have George Bush's Iraq War to drive up gas prices as in 2004-2009 when the Prius Liftback came out. Maybe, just maybe, President Trump can pull a Bush and help get the job done faster.