Hydrogen Fuel Cells Are Becoming Too Big to Ignore

I'm technophobic against bad tech. I guess you haven't seen the video where it shows one of these hydrogen monsters being meticulously hand-built.

 

Don't hold your breath that fossil fuel use will end during your lifetime, if you do, you are only fooling yourself.

DBCassidy

 

Toyota’s Fuel Cell Vehicles Can Handle The Cold - HybridCars.com

Charts and further details may be seen at Teslarati

 

Why assume the range extender will be an ICE?

It is ICE now simply because of cost and infrastructure. PHVs will continue to use them for the same reason. Maintenance will likely be more than a FCEV, and won't be as trivial as a BEV, but for a PHV ICE, it will be less than a straight ICE, and then that maintenance needs to viewed against what you get in return. Compared to a FCEV, a PHV can go anywhere in, and even outside of, the country. Against a BEV, you get fast refueling for your cannonball run.

Vehicle weight needs to be viewed the same way. There are more efficient BEVs than the Model S out there. Most people are willing to trade that for the increased range and performance. The Volt's efficiency will go up without the weight of the ICE, but the corresponding increase in range would be enough for a BEV, and it will regain the weight in batteries. The Mirai is close to the Volt in terms of passengers, space, and performance, but is heavier. You likely see what it gets for that weight as a plus.

Is there any PHV available today that isn't in the top two emission bins? Tailpipe emissions will be less than an ICE or even a hybrid for most drive patterns. Most tailpipe emissions are from lawn mowers, snow blowers and much older cars at this point in time. And time will take care of that for personal cars as the old ones finally die, and get replaced.

So ICEs are it for now, but in the likely time frame that hydrogen FCEV gets across the country, there will likely other options for the job on a plug in. Aluminum air batteries could work out. On a long trip, they will need distilled water. Already available at every supermarket. With increased number of cars, rest stop stores will start carrying it. They just need to carry less bottled water. Eventually there will be a pump for it at gas stations. The means of making, storing, and transporting distilled water are already well known, and less costly than for hydrogen. For cross country trips, the network of anode replacement needs to be built out. In terms of space, manpower, and equipment, it will likely be on par with an quickie lube. Only the materials are much less toxic. Again less cost than hydrogen.

Then we might have non-hydrogen FCEVs. Using gasoline or diesel may not be ideal, but the infrastructure is already there, and a fuel cell will use less fuel, with lower tailpipe emissions, than an ICE. Combined with grid power, they make renewable liquid fuels more likely to meat demand.

If ultra fast charging BEVs became mainstream, we need less charging stations than gasoline stations since the majority of electric consumption for charging will still be the slow way.

Where is the hydrogen for night time electric going to be stored, plus the hydrogen to refill the car overnight? The guy in Jersey living your hydrogen dream now has a literal tank farm in his yard for real low pressure storage. A compressor is going to be involved for the very least into get the panel made hydrogen flowing at the required rate into the fuel cell. The gas will generate some pressure, but it will might resistance when moving into the narrower lines to get to the fuel cell and storage.

And in the event such a station is built where the electrical supply isn't up to snuff, there are ways of making it work off a lower electrical input through some type of buffering system.

Unless you are viewing some type of future where everything has a fuel cell, a la that Leaf gasoline commercial, I don't see what markets it will disrupt. Hydrogen has to be made. If made centrally, it will likely be made from natural gas or coal. How does that disrupt the electric market we have now?

Hydrogen can be made renewably, but so can electric. It only gets disruptive if it is cheaper than what we are doing now. Same in regards to electric storage. If the hydrogen and fuel cell isn't better, i.e. cheaper, than batteries, pumped water, compressed air, fly wheels, or whatever other scheme for energy storage we come up with, it will only be a small player.

Off grid home power, maybe disruptive there. But it's a small market, and I think most people would prefer dealing with batteries over a colorless, odorless gas.

Hydrogen pipelines to every home would get rid of all those hanging wires. So would simply burying the wires. Why don't towns and cities simply do just that?

If you can rewire an antique lamp, you have all the skills needed to install an EVSE. From experience, plumbing is more PITA than electrical. A person getting a 300 mile range BEV is going to have a level 2 charger installed. Days of charging is going to be very very very rare out in the real world.

Better not look into the life span of the hydrogen tanks or fuel cell, which is just a slightly different battery.

GM just knew how much a bitch CARB can be. The i3 REX works just fine outside of the US.

Well, let's see, a BEV has a battery, inverter, controller, charger, and motor. Plus the wiring a cooling system for anything that requires it. A FCEV doesn't have the charger, and the battery is smaller, but it gains a high pressure hydrogen tank and fuel cell with all the plumbing connecting the two. There is an exhaust system to carry away the water vapor, with heater to keep it from freezing in winter. An air compressor to feed the fuel cell air. Plus a system of hydrogen sensors to detect any leaks in addition the high voltage safety measures the car should have.

 

I don't understand repeating this old story. Toyota USA had said the range of the FCHV-ADV was 430 miles. Here their partners say in cold it doesn't decrease and is still 300 miles. There probably is no control. It is a leased vehicle that did not have an epa rating since toyota did not want one (why pay for the test when you only lease to your friends).

Now we have the mirai. It is only sold and leased in California in the US. I don't think there is any cold weather where it can refuel, unless you head east from sacremento, the last station, but you won't stay there. THis appears to be a possible advantage in places where a toyota fcv will not be available. I do look forward to toyota running an actual test and not just a press release and telling us how much range it loses. Even hybrids lose range in cold weather, I would expect a fuel cell to lose at least as much, they aren't magic.

 

Not convinced?

Charles Lane - Cold truths about electric cars' cold-weather shortcomings

Electric Car Cold Weather Effects; How do Electric Cars operate in Cold Weather Climates?

 

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to convince me of, is it FUD? That fuel cells will beat plug-ins in cold weather places because they lose no range and have a great refueling infrastructure.

You posted an old article saying the toyota Fuel cell doesn't lose any range in the cold, but there were no tests for range when it wasn't cold by those making the claim. The article claimed that they still maintained the same 300 range for the old prototype FCHV-adv, while other articles at that time had Toyota USA claiming a range of 430 miles. Of course they did not do any standardized tests. I have no idea if it lost 130 miles or 50 miles, they simply had no methodology and aren't rolling out that old tech. They simply asserted it, no loss, as if it were a fact. Hybrids lose range in the cold. I would certainly expect fuel cell vehicles to lose range. One of the technical problems with PEM fuel cells in 2004 is they didn't work well in very cold temperatures. Honda over came this by ... using the battery to heat the fuel cell ... and slightly different materials in the cell. Toyota used the same formula. Why not actually test the mirai to see how much range it loses in the cold. Tesla has a calculator right on its website to tell you, as they have substancially tested. For example a model 70d at 70 degrees and 60 mph can go 281 mph. Put on the bigger 21" wheels, and go 70mph and it drops to 232, then keep up that speed and go to 0 degrees and use the heat and you drop to 175 miles, (240 mile range with the 85d, 60mph, 19" wheels heat 0 degrees). Need to go further or colder, you need to slow down and/or get the standard wheels and/or get the 90 kwh pack and/or wear a jacket and turn the heat down.

The reason you won't see that test is it simply is not true. FCV are going to lose range in the cold. It takes more energy to drive through the dense air, the rubber compounds in the tires resit the road more, the cabin occupants want it warm now, not once their is enough waste heat.

And really who cares how much range fuel cell vehicles will lose in the cold in the US, for now they only plan to lease and sell them in california. By the time they try to lease them in colder states, the fuel cell may be made of something completely different, and they may have bigger hydrogen tanks, or may be carrying cng or methanol instead of hydrogen which takes up less car volume.

Yes plug-ins lose range. Your articles weren't very good ones. This is probably better.
Electric Car Drivers Report Impact from Extreme Cold | PluginCars.com

Lots of plug-ins have sold and more will sell in cold weather places. Range needs to be taken into consideration. The gen II volt and upcoming bolt and teslas should be much better than old leafs and imevs. Lets see if gen II leaf adds liquid conditioning to a cold weather package so that it can lose less range. Any plug in is going to get you further than a fuel cell in a cold weather place unless you have access to private hydrogen. Its the infrastructure and lack of vehicles.

 

Remember, an FCEV is still an EV so temperature (high or low) can affect it too.

From the Mirai owners manual (page 98):

When the power output is restricted, the vehicle may fail to accelerate or even decelerate, even though the accelerator pedal is depressed. If a safe driving speed cannot be maintained, stop the vehicle in a safe place away from the traffic. This may be caused by the following conditions:

The coolant temperature may be too high. This can be caused by driving conditions such as repeated sudden acceleration and deceleration, continuous driving on an incline, continuous driving at high altitudes with a high load, etc. In such situations, the power output restriction indicator (amber) is displayed on the main display, “High FC Temperature Reduced Power” is displayed on the multi-information display, and the power output is restricted.

and

On cold days, the low fuel warning indicator comes on faster than usual and the output power is restricted.

 

More sanity, I'm loving it. Who knew H2 could overcome physics?! Magical stuff, this Mirai.

 

Very tricky. So rather than breaking the laws of physics, what they may, at the moment, be doing is hobbling the power in the car, thus extending the range.
So the cold would reduce the range, but the power restrictions increase the range giving a net zero effect.

Not a bad solution, depending upon how much the power is restricted. EVs currently leave this in the hands f the driver. It will be interesting, some day, when we see how well received that solution is for cold weather climates.

 

My problem with that viewpoint is it does not reflect history. There was only economic pain in getting rid of the massive CFC pollution via the Montreal Protocols. Remember that? There was only economic pain for the utilities in putting scrubbers on Coal plants. There was only economic pain for all involved in putting emissions controls on cars. There is only economic pain coming for VW to get their diesels to comply. Yet these all happened...every single one. Sure many folks are comfortable simply ignoring it. They are also the people getting to watch the more proactive folks actually do something they can only bitch about. So here is the disconnect. Many would do nothing to have their vehicle pollute less. So the decision is made for them. They now can only buy vehicles with all the pollution control stuff in the car. The CO2 pollution problem is bigger, but the history books are showing the increasing mobilization of folks (e.g. Elon Musk) who are figuring out how to solve the problems incrementally, but steadily.

 

Yep, no surprises with the above articles, Compromises must be made. Freeze your butt off (lessen batt draw) or stay warm. Its' all about trade offs.

DBCassidy

 

The real issue there is that fuel cells are a lot less efficient at releasing their electrical energy than batteries so there is more waste heat which might be used for cabin passengers.

Apparently it is harder to make use of this heat compared to engine heat because there is less of it and the coolant fluid is typically cooler than engine coolant. We have yet to see any real reviews or details about how the Mirai may or may not be utilizing fuel cell waste heat for the cabin.

 

With regards to the Leaf launch I would suggest that's the difference between Toyota & Nissan(Renault) R&D budget/timelines.

Reflect back to how Toyota launched the Lexus brand compared the the Infiniti brand launch.

 

Oops somehow my old reply was mucked here is second attempt.
Yes I assume PHEVs will use gas for the next 10 years, as the need for dual fuels is about refueling convience and no other fuel is likely to be convient in the next decade. After that we can talk and see, but agree you are right to make this assumption.

There was a problem with toyota fuel cell cars a decade ago, they couldn't start in the cold. They have solved this problem by using different fuel cell materials and battery electricity to heat them. Since they need batteries to work in the cold, they can't really handle more cold than BEVs.

There is more waste heat, that they can use to have a smaller drop in efficiency than BEVs when its cold out. For cold weather PHEVs also have this waste heat from their engines. Liquid conditioned big battery packs probably have similar start up hits, but they must supply more electricity to heat the cabin. Air cooled packs like those in the leaf suffer the most, as they must use more electricity to heat themselves, and stay in operating range.

Key to best vehicle for the job - leaf, volt, mirai, tesla model S means that it not only works for a given trip, but for the lifestyle of the driver. Mirai here is the worst for cold weather drivers because there is no infrastructure. It requires a move, or that they somehow pay for home delivery of hydrogen. The leaf is also a poor choice. The volt and tesla seem to do fine in cold weather. The tesla is very popular is cold norway. Prewarming the cabin in these two cars is a luxury benefit ;-)

 

What, Toyota used up all the turtle lights from the gen1 Prius?

Co-generate is a two dollar word for saying they put a waste product, heat in this case, to useful work. When the heat isn't needed, it is just wasted. My ICE car also co-generates heat. There is enough there to cook a meal in the engine bay on my commute. Using the heat to make bacon will save the energy needed for doing it on the stove, but it won't improve the car's fuel efficiency.

The big deal about FECVs operating in a Northeast winter is that the earlier generation ones simply couldn't operate at those normal winter temperatures. But lets turn this into a FCEV vs. BEV topic while ignoring how a PHV gives the zero tailpipe emission benefit for most drives with the fast refuel for the fewer long ones.