Gen 4 Staff Manual (In Japanese) =/ Specs/Design/Other Info

why do you keep linking auto writers and claiming toyota officials said it? they didn't say it. it doesn't matter how many articles you find unless you find a quote.

 

The engine air intake seems to making a beeline for the front grill, in the pics over at cleanmpg. Has some convolutions along the way tho.

 

Quick comparison from Ken's excellent data:

	metric	LiON G4	NiMH G4	NiMH G3
1	cells	56 @3.7V	168 @1.2V	168 @1.2V
2	stack/module/module	28 @103.6V	6 @7.2V	6 @7.2V
3	stack/pack/pack	2 @207.2V	28 @201.6V	28 @201.6V
4	Whr	745.92	1310.4	1310.4
5	dSOC @524 Whr	70%	40%	40%
6	volume	30.5 l	35.5 l	39.4 l
7	weight	24.5 kg	40.3 kg	41.3 kg

One of the hardest things to explain to non-Prius folks is the traction battery is part of the transmission and not key to the excellent mileage. However, it looks like the NiMH has an additional 500 Whr of capacity that if it could be exploited might reduce the warm-up penalty.

Bob Wilson

Calculated the 40-80% SOC Whr for NiMH, ~524 Whr, and used it to estimate the LiON range of SOC for the equivalent energy. Pure speculation, we await having a test article and/or the "New Car Features" for the 2016. It is reasonable that improved traction batteries may also come with improved battery controller and thermal management.

 

Yes, but the SOC window is larger on the Li-ion

 

Point me to the source and I'll be happy to include in the table. In fact, I have no problem with expanding the table to include things like maximum charge and discharge current, temperature range(s), and even hazard material data sheet summaries.

Bob Wilson

 

I can't help myself,but if the refreshed Auris Hybrid allready can get 3.6 L./100 Km (European cycle) with the old gen. 3 Prius power train, would it really sound impressive if gen. 4 Prius get's 3.5 or 3.4 Liters/100 Km with just 122 Hp vs. 136 hp ?
And remember,the Auris was never really ment to be a Hybrid so it isn't by far as aerodynamic as a Prius !
I hope they haven't reduced top speed too !

 

To achieve 3.6 they simple put not too bad 15" tires on. With 16" the mileage increase to 3,9.
The Auris cd is 0,28 which isn't the best but it's very good, the European cycle doesn't include highway speed just one acceleration to 120 km/h for a few secs, most of the test is under 100 km/h, the difference in the tires is more important than 0,2 in cd at those speeds.

 

I see two: One large at the left (likely for engine coolant) and one small at the front (left of the red battery terminal cover, likely for inverter coolant). Btw. on the pictures of the transaxle released by Toyota I do not see any liquid cooling of the MGs, except for transmission fluid. Exhaust gas return (EGR) is liquid cooled.

 

We have to wait for the next Prius specifics, but we know the NiMH of current and previous generations only use @20% of the packs capacity. Pinning down what SOC range Li-ion hybrids are using now is eluding me, but the PHVs are using 60% or more.

 

20%? I thought the 2nd generation used 40%, ranging from 40% to 80% of the battery's SOC range. Not sure about the 3rd generation.

 

3.6l is some model that nobody sells... it is 3.9l usual... new Prius will be 3.2l or 3.3l

BUT, does it really matter if it is 3.3l or 3.6l? I dont think so. Prius should be a lot better car than before, with better drive, better interior, less noise and more equipment. There is also significantly more space than in Auris. And thats what matters.

New Prius should also be significantly more efficient in winter and on highways, something that testing cycle wont show possibly but will happen in real life.

I really do hope that it wont be slower than before.

 

i cant find your post where you asked about boot opening - so I will respond here. One of the videos shows boot opening of Prius 8.3cm wider than before... thats pretty nice difference, overall boot should be really nice and usable for car of this size... one of the videos also shows them measuring it up to the window as well (so not to the roof).

 

You are correct. I got the math wrong.

Either way, that 40 to 80 range is pretty much what the Prius has used since its introduction. Except for some potential BASF found with NiMH in some lab testing, there really hasn't been much improvement with the chemistry like lithium ones have seen in the past decade. And we know what happens to NiMH packs that get pushed out of the range often thanks to Honda.

So I don't think we should be surprised if the gen4 NiMH sticks to the same SOC range. All that can be said about the Li-ion is that it use more than 50% of the pack at this point.

 

Ok, I went on a limb and updated the table with a projected, delta SOC that gives the same Whr for the LiON and NiMH. However, this is not something I feel comfortable.

With an improved, smaller NiMH traction battery and modules, it is very likely Toyota improved the thermal and SOC management. This might allow a larger SOC range. Also, I get the impression the LiON is not on the 4e drive cars that might need additional capacity. This suggests the NiMH may have more usable capacity, a wider SOC range, than we've seen in the earlier generations.

We really need test articles and/or "New Car Features" as well as a thorough review of Toyota SAE papers. But when has 'going out on a limb' ever stopped our community? <GRINS>

Bob Wilson

 

In europe, the NDEC cycle tolerates some "optimizations". Constructors has been using tricks that allows to display very low FE. 10 years ago, the difference between NDEC and real consumptions were 10-15%, now it's more 35-40%. I own a P3 that is rated 3.9 l/100km that consumes less than my CT200h rated 3.7 l/100 km. Why ? the CT200 was launched later, with more tricks used for NDEC tests.

So I suspect the Auris displayed consumption is lower because of that

my 2 cents

 

so what do they both average in your driving conditions?

 

^^ Aiming to the test? this is done by all manufacturers.
CT200h is a good example, as far as I remember it's results on EPA are poorer than Prius. Maybe CT200h was built with the face to the European market?

 

4,15 l/100 km with the P3 (56.6 MPG US)
4.40 l/100 km with the CT200h (53.4 MPG US)

(same driving conditions)

Marc

 

pretty darn good... any other cars under same conditions (non hybrids)? Thanks!