2016 Prius or 2016 Volt...Which should I buy?

Lets see how the gen 2 volt and nissan leaf do once version 2 is available. 1000 units in sept is not bad considering version 2 is right around the corner.
Monthly Plug-In Sales Scorecard

 

I've owned a Gen II, a Gen III and a Gen III PIP, and I must say these vehicles hold up much better than most of the vehicles I've previously owned; mostly from GM. After 5 total electrical failures on my very last Silverado, GM is in my rearview mirror, forever. I'm looking forward to getting a Gen IV as soon as they are available. I'll use it when I don't need to drive my Tundra.

 

These are well established goals, proven important by the previous generation.

Notice how certain topics are evaded? That's a dead giveaway that particular aspect didn't fulfill the need.

 

FCEV's shot down in one short sentence.

 

The most simple for the consumer is to simply switch from gas to hydrogen.

 

Until a national industry standard replacement is set...if "one" ever is...it's all about choice and one's own reasoning behind that choice. In other words, there is no right or wrong as it applies.

 

More accurately, "All other things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one."

Its important to remember that the simplest solution may be wrong or may be flawed in ways you do not anticipate.

 

I don't recall getting the impression that the Volt was created with the intention of primarily or particularly selling it to existing GM customers.

I don't recall the focus being subsequently turned toward conquest sales (bringing non-GM customers). I think conquest sales was the original purpose.

At the time GM began the Volt effort in 2007 they had a weak track record on passenger cars. Their focus had been primarily on trucks, SUVs, and large cars like Cadillacs etc. People who wanted quality smaller passenger cars for commuting etc. went elsewhere -- especially in California. I distinctly recall performing an informal census of non-huge passenger cars in my Silicon Valley neighborhood and workplace back then and almost none of them were made by GM.

I think GM set out to demonstrate technical prowess in order to improve their corporate image and also to grab a distinct marketplace position with a car that wanted to be an EV but kept a foot in the gasoline engine camp for short-term practicality. Before the car hit the market in late 2010, GM let it be known that they initially discussed creating the Volt as a BEV and then took one step back and made it an EV with a smaller battery plus a range extender.

GM officials talked about the Volt being a Prius-beater but not literally as a Prius clone. The Volt is obviously not a "traditional" Prius-like hybrid and was never intended to be one. Rather, the Volt was intended to fit a different market -- a transitional vehicle occupying the middle ground between a non-plug hybrid and a full-up ~80 mile BEV like the LEAF. This was the first generation vision and it remains true with the second generation. Meanwhile, the PR goal was to steal some of Toyota's feel-good vibe from the Prius.

Huhwut?

Didn't we just finish talking about the ~$10,000 cost reduction between the 2011 and 2016 Volt that was carried out as an intentional top-priority goal for the second generation?

Didn't GM reduce the MSRP of the car by $10,000 (in 2015 dollars) between 2011 and 2016? In today's dollars, the MSRP plus destination fee was $44,809 if counting inflation since 2010 or $43,438 if counting since 2011. The 2016 MSRP plus destination fee today is $33,995.

CPI Inflation Calculator

The Volt's battery pack remains a large component cost and all signs point towards continued rapid cost reductions in batteries over the ~5 year lifecycle of the second generation car.

Several of the BEV's that the Volt is cross-shopped against are smaller than the Volt: Chevy Spark EV, Smart EV, Fiat 500e. The forthcoming Tesla Model 3 is speculated to be about the same size as a Volt or compact BMW 3-Series. The Chevy Bolt is also compact and likely no bigger but will have a taller profile like the BMW i3.

The Volt is a compact car like many other commuter-centric cars. There is a large market in that segment. Would it be nice to have a little more legroom and a slightly longer hatchback area? Sure, but for whatever reason (reuse of existing shared GM platforms) it didn't happen. But the reality is that all cars have some compromises and the Volt's somewhat cramped rear seating is shared by many other cars out there.

Not at all. The Volt's only other large battery PHEV competitor in the US is the BMW i3 REx which repurposes a motorcycle engine as a range extender.

Many have found the i3 range extender underpowered and essentially unusable on mountain roads. It could be improved if the European programming was used instead of the CARB inspired restrictions that inhibit it from having a "Mountain Mode" feature where the engine and battery can be used together well before the battery runs "empty".

Even then, however, the small engine would be straining to generate its maximum 25 kW of output and this would create unpleasant cabin noise and vibrations. The Volt, with a 53 mile battery rather than the i3 REx's 72 miles, would inherently be more likely to use the gas engine at times during regional metro driving. It makes sense to make it large enough to give improved gas mpg (42 vs 39 for the lighter i3) and a better quality driving experience.

GM did remove costs from the Volt engine by using a smaller 1.5L engine instead of the 1.8L used by the Malibu hybrid. They also went with a lower-cost EV-centric ferrite small motor generator instead of using rare earth metals and the left out an exhaust gas heat recovery (EGHR) feature also in the Malibu. The lack of EGHR and rare earth motor took away approximately 4 mpg in hybrid efficiency but lowered costs on the engine.

Why the 2016 Chevy Malibu Hybrid Gets Better MPG Than The 2016 Chevy Volt - HybridCars.com

I can't recall anyone from GM ever saying the Volt or Volt-like cars obliterated the need for non-plug hybrids, smaller battery plugin hybrids, or BEVs being sold in the marketplace. Likewise, the existence of hybrid offerings or BEVs does not remove the market for a Volt.

In fact, I think it's very likely that the growth of the BEV market over the next decade will result in increasing sales of Volt-like transitional cars that straddle the non-plug hybrid and BEV market spaces. Gasoline is still a very useful liquid and some otherwise EV-ready customers are going to want to keep the flexibility and fast road trip refueling that comes with having an engine.

Perhaps you are referring to your own perception that GM itself needs to sell hybrids and BEVs as well as, maybe, Volts rather than only selling Volts and allowing other companies to sell hybrids and BEVs? You seem to think they must sell all possible variations of cars but you curiously don't seem to apply the same standard to Toyota. Well, GM is now leveraging their Volt transmission to sell non-plug hybrids just like Toyota and Ford leveraged their non-plug hybrid transmissions to sell PHEVs so I guess your happy (?). Efficiencies of shared manufacturing and all that...

Your letting your apparent Volt-derangement cloud your ability to see that the Volt has a very clear market and growth opportunity as a transitional commuter car that provides a bridge between non-plug cars and non-engine cars. The Volt and i3 are the only cars that fill that niche at the moment. Meanwhile, there are a growing number of me-too 20-25 mile blended PHEVs likely to include the next generation Prius plugin in another year or so.

I think GM has defined a winning formula in the Volt for the next decade. You clearly disagree. We shall see who is right.

 

The problem is, that segment is occupied primarily by cars that cost on the order of $15k, not $35k. For example, the Chevy Cruze starts around $16k. It's hard to imagine people thinking $18k for 50 miles of EV range is a good deal.

 

I recall that over 100,000 people a year think a BMW 3-Series is a good deal starting at around $34,000. Why? Largely because a 3-series drives a whole lot nicer than a Cruze. I haven't driven a 3-series lately but there are 3-series drivers who have switched to the first generation Volt and not regretted it.

The Volt is also a much nicer drive than the Cruze. As a commuter car, I'm guessing the 2016 Volt is even a nicer drive than the lower-priced 3-series cars with its instant torque and quiet, smooth, and vibration-free EV powertrain.

The Volt is also a lot cheaper than a 3-series with the tax credit and possibly local rebates. And Volt prices will continue falling with reduced battery costs and part sharing with other GM hybrids. The Volt is also typically a lot cheaper to refuel per mile on EV as well as on gasoline.

Similar comparisons apply to other compact and small intermediate cars in the $28-34k MSRP market that collectively sell hundreds of thousands of units annually.

 

As was mentioned, the lower the price, the higher the volume. All a matter of how fast the battery prices can come down. For a 2 car household, it seems that 50 to 100 miles worth of range is enough to make that 2nd car electric at a price of ~$30K. The Prius and volt can do it for a 1 car household. Getting all EV cars down below $20K will be hard, and even when that happens, it will be a long time before the range or charging infrastructure gets good enough for someone to buy that car as their only means of transportation - would have to forego long trips. Except for Tesla owners, I don't think other EV drivers would want to hassle with long charges to make a 300-400 mile trip.

 

Not for me. It's not even uncommon for my wife to take her car on a 250 mile round trip the same day I drive mine 100 miles or more.

 

I was an active participant back then and took the time to blog about quotes as they were made. Those are all readily available still. It's far different looking back, long after the fact.

I asked how, not who.

 

I was around then too.

Do you have links handy?

 

According to this new article, nationwide ordering for the 2017 Volt (including the adaptive cruise control option) starts in a couple of months in December:

Nationwide Order Books For 2017 Chevrolet Volt To Open This December

 

Old links tell a much different story.

Back in the A.M. (ante-Mirai), John1701a was definitely against hydrogen. Maybe it was because GM was making all the hydrogen headlines back then.

The energy loss from converting electricity to hydrogen still doesn't make any sense either. Why not avoid that process entirely and use electricity as-is by just adding a plug to a hybrid?
GM announces introduction of Hydrogen Fuel cell car | PriusChat


Fuel-Cells are still way too costly and no still where near as robust for automotive use. It will take quite awhile before they become practical enough as an engine replacement. In the meantime, battery technology will continue to improve, which makes the plug-in hybrid the solution to be sought for quite some time now. Expecting a fuel-cell anytime soon is totally unrealistic.
Isn't hydrogen and fuel cells just a bunch of BS? | Page 2 | PriusChat

or spreading a little (possible) FUD:

Problem is, the water isn't vapor. It's a steady dribble... which is really bad for those of us in the north. Imagine roads intersections coated with a layer of that emission.
Automakers Try To Sell Government On Fuel Cell Cars | PriusChat


Now P.M .(post Mirai), John is fully onboard the hydrogen bandwagon. Funny how that works.

 

Specifically, you said:

I thought your question was based on a false presumption because the Volt quite apparently targets the emerging market area which I then proceeded to describe.

The Volt is a transitional vehicle that bridges the stark divide between gasoline engine cars and engine-less cars at a reasonable price while retaining all of the advantages of full power EV driving, a path forward for efficient carbon reduction, and fast refueling on longer trips without need for massive new infrastructure.

 

Maybe because Toyota addressed those concerns with breakthroughs?

Where is GM with their fuel cell after collecting billions of US tax dollars?

 

Toyota only partially addressed one of the three quotations of concerns that John expressed in the past. They've lowered the cost of the fuel cell mostly by reducing platinum levels.

I think you're already aware that Honda is using GM's fuel cell technology in their recently announced fuel cell car.

 

Telling people why I was against the technology of the time (an entire decade ago) reveals an entirely different story. You can't just omit detail like that. And speaking of omitting things, the spin now is to imply people are anti-EV by pointing out they like recent fuel-cell advancements.