2016 Prius or 2016 Volt...Which should I buy?

I have a tentative theory of what is going on here with the different perspectives on the need for 120V vs 240V charging.

My theory is that some folks are used to thinking about this issue only from a Prius PHEV perspective where it is typical to arrive home with an "empty" battery that needs to be fully recharged. This idea is so ingrained that it's just difficult to step out of that mindset into a world where it is normal to arrive home with a partially full battery that just needs a few hours at 120V overnight to be fully topped off.

There seems to be this weird notion that because your EV range is 38 miles, 53 miles, 72 miles, or maybe even 250 miles that you are obligated to drive around using up the battery before pulling into the driveway at home. Most people drive less than 53 miles on a typical day. There are studies about this. Science and all that.

 

Count me out.

 

1,2,3, out!

 

that's why 'some' phev mfg.'s think more than 20-30 miles is a waste.

 

I spoke my piece and counted 10!

 

Ok, I spent a few minutes googling for statistics. The basic theme is that an average person in the US goes 20-30 miles per day in urban areas and 30-40 miles per day in rural areas. People who are most likely to have the money and a commute to a daily job tend to drive slightly more.

For an average driver this means plugging into 120V for 6-9 hours overnight or from 10pm - 7am or less.

Of course, some people drive more and some less. Some people drive more on some days and less on other days. And EV driving ranges are reduced in winter months. I didn't immediately find percentage breakdowns on such "50% of people drive between 25 and 32 miles a day" or whatever.

These numbers are entirely consistent with plugging in a 2016 Volt, for example, overnight at 120V.

http://nhts.ornl.gov/2009/pub/stt.pdf



MSA stands for Metropolitan Statistics Area. The X axis shows the trend by population density.

 

Go back to the statement at the front of post 106. There was a concise definition of what constituted a car model as being a failure. That definition took no factors of supply or demand into account. If you have an issue with that criteria I would recommend taking that issue up with the poster making the statement, not me.

 

It has been interesting to watch history repeat with such predictability. You wouldn't expect so well of a match. The same reactions from the same questions, despite different participants & circumstances. Recognizing the pattern means knowing the outcome. So, there's no real reason to continue. You'd think lessons of the past would have more of an influence. Apparently, that's not the case.

 

The tesla is recommended to charge to somewhere in the vicinity of 60% if that will cover your usage for the day (~150 miles is ~60%).
Everyone's driving patterns will dictate how fast and often they will need to charge (and at what price). What is the sweet spot for cost vs % of daily miles covered by EV? Where is the knee of the curve? I'm not sure. The PiP was actually close in 2012. When we didn't use the PiP for long trips, we were getting 40% of our miles via electricity, but I may not be typical nor near the knee of the curve. Of course that sweet spot changes as battery prices drop.

 

From the charts in post #146 it seems to me Toyota should aim at 20-25 miles EV with the second generation plug-in. More than that is a waste especially with their outstanding ICE efficiency and cleanliness.
Average commute in Europe is slightly shorter I suppose.

 

One big problem with US incentives for alternative technologies in transportation is, IMO, the lack of correlation to efficiency, just battery size counts.

 

That seems likely to me also based on Toyota's past positioning of the Prius PHEV as a blended plugin that seeks to eliminate cold gas engine starts for short trips and perhaps entirely for shorter commutes. The bigger battery will allow for more power making it less likely to inadvertently starting the gas engine during acceleration, especially at highway onramps. An "EVNow" mode like on the Ford Energi is likely possible with 0-60 mph in around 13 seconds or a bit faster than the Energi's ~15 seconds due to reduced curb weight.

I don't agree with "more than that is a waste". That might be true in some sense for some drivers but for others it might not be great to have the cold gas engine turn on for the last 3 miles of their commute every day burning gas less efficiently during the first several miles.

That much battery is also likely unable to drive the car in a non-blended mode with the level of acceleration that people expect from a typical car today and that's okay. It's a simple tradeoff of cost, pack size vs cabin space. I don't think that makes larger battery packs a "waste", at least relative to all of the much larger wasting that goes on around people every day.

A ~40 mile battery becomes large enough with today's Lithium-ion chemistry to give the car full EV performance. The new Volt's 53 mile range gives it a little more flexibility, especially in maintaining good EV range in winter conditions, and in helping to guarantee a good range throughout the ~15 lifetime of the car.

Both 20-30 and 40-60 mile range PHEVs provide good choices for drivers that want to dramatically reduce their gasoline consumption and efficiently utilize reduced carbon electricity going forward. As usual, different cars fit better for different drivers. Choice is good. Individuals can make better local choices than a central planner dictating one-size-fits-all battery specifications.

 

@Jeff N
My second paragraph is connected to the first. Its a waste according to Toyota philosophy (which suits me perfect) of a PHEV being a machine starving for max. efficiency of both energy sources available on board. Yes, the grid gets cleaner and with it Toyota battery size.
The case of the driver who needs the ICE the last 2 miles of his daily commute is really a very special case, like the case of a driver who drives a 40-50 EV miles PHEV that prioritize EV driving, with a lifetime utility factor of 95% carrying a dead weight 95% of his miles for the piece of mind of the remaining 5%.

 

I too looked, and it was a close call until..

I discovered that the volt does not have adaptive cruse control.

With my long trips from ma to fl, or ma to ar and back, it is a must have feature for me.

I bought my first prius in 2011, a year later I learned about adaptive course control, and so I traded my 2011 prius fro a 2012 prius with the adaptive cruse.

Happy ever after. !

jp

 

If you arrive home with remaining EV miles most of the time, you've overpaid your PHEV. Not only for the oversized battery but also the penalties (heavier car, lower gas MPG, etc) resulting from it.

I don't like my car to be a garage queen. There is cost associated with the real estate. Many here are just looking at L1 or L2 chargers. A garage is worth $10-30k.

 

Pretty good for a compact 4+1 seater commuter car. So, why do we need such a big battery pack to achieve it? Because there is tax incentives to exploit?

Perhaps, to power the Volt with coal and natual gas mix -- and hype it up as it runs on solar (tiny fraction)?

If everything being equal, the simpliest solution is the best one.

 

And if you're not driving at full throttle most of the time you overpaid for your combustion engine, and you pay for it in cost of the engine, a heavier car and reduced MPG, etc.

 

Even worse, if you don't use that combustion engine most of the time.

 

Volt is experiencing an identity crisis. It attempted to dethrone Prius by becoming a popular seller among GM customers. That just plain didn't work. So, focus was turned to conquest sales from outside the loyal buyers instead. That didn't work either. Gen-1 just flailed about, not drawing attention beyond enthusiasts. That leaves us wondering what the changes are. What should we expect?

Suggestions from devoted supporters were taken and a mix of them fulfilled by Gen-2. That spelled trouble immediately upon reveal. Even though performance aspects had been enhanced, the simple consumer needs of cost reduction (for lower price) and more interior space (rear leg & head room) were obviously not a priority. We're seeing the fallout of that already in the form of disappointed posts by those supporters.

Meanwhile, marketing is a becoming disaster. The compact size prevents it from competing with the very electric-only vehicles Gen-2 hope had been set on. The upcoming competition (Bolt) is causing direct contradictions of what previous promotions had emphasized. The design of the gas-engine & gas-tank conflict with the message that either will be needed in all but rare circumstances. Meanwhile, the two types of offerings Volt was to prevent from being needed (hybrid & EV) are progressing toward availability next year.

It's a big mess. How do you sell a vehicle that doesn't target any specific market?

 

Last I looked everyone is bitching about the Gen IV Prius too....which nobody can buy yet either. You folks are just arguing fanboy semantics.