Toyota Comments on Cost Reduction of 4th-gen Prius

I we ever expect to see hybrids to grow to 5%+ of the vehicles on the road, we probably need to get the costs down.

I have long been concerned about justifying the extra cost of a hybrid, especially in some states like Virginia where we tax the living crap out of cars, if you can get the price down to $20k that's a big help (at $20k+ we add more car taxes here).

 

I bought my Prius mostly because I like to drive a compact vehicle but wanted a back seat that is comfortable for passengers and the practicality of a hatchback. The Prius met that criteria. The only other vehicles like that were entry level vehicles such as the Honda Fit. I wanted the smart key and heated seats.

I do drive enough to make it worth it to make up for the extra Hybrid cost which is hard to calculate because there is no non hybrid Prius but is probably about $3000 (as is the case with the hybrid Camry vs the non hybrid). If I drove less, then a non hybrid Prius at $3000 less would be attractive.

I'm not actually advocating for a non hybrid Prius. I personally like that it is dedicated to it's mission. Also other well equiped compact vehicles are available now.

 

certainly very possible. this bubble is going to pop sooner or later.

 

i can't go back to a car with an engine running all the time. even stop start with no battery would be preferable.

 

What concerns me is maybe they cut too many corners in other aspects of the car to offset the cost of the hybrid system? Also, the 2016 styling seems to be an attempt to win new converts, to my eye: over-the-top and jarring.

 

The gaping maw seems to be the new trend. It looks like Toyota is following Mitsubishi & Hyundai/Kia. You know as soon as one does it they all have to do it.

 

I think that particularly in the US, a price reduction is a real possibility. That of course does not mean it will actually happen as price reduction is not normally a corporate goal.

The reason's I think that are, the rise in the US dollar compared to the Yen, low gas prices, what I imagine Toyota's market objectives may be, and because I think that the marginal cost to Toyota for hybrid compared to a conventional vehicle may be far less than the numbers that are generally suggested and the hybrid may even cost them less either now or in the near future.

We don't really know the relative cost or the relative marginal cost to Toyota, but factors in my thinking are: I believe that Toyota's hybrids have fewer parts than traditional vehicles but more complex controls; The controls are mainly a fixed cost to Toyota and don't add that much to the marginal cost for an extra vehicle; the hybrid specific parts are dropping in cost while the parts in traditional cars have been rising; and no other manufacturer has come up with a really comparable car to the Prius so there is not a lot of competitive pressure on Toyota to reduce their margins for this vehicle. For all we know, the current heavily discounted pricing on the Gen 3 may be entirely viable as a base price for the Gen 4.

 

?? A hybrid has all the same parts as a normal vehicle plus more for the hybrid specific components. Its no more immune to rising cost of parts than any other car.

 

Really? I've never found the 7 speed automatic transmission or torque converter on my Prius.

 

the PSD on the prius is more expensive that most complete transmissions on cars in its class

 

No way. Not even close.

The cost is in the electric motors, power electronics and batteries, not the tiny, simple planetary PSD.

 

rare metals and copper used in motors and electronics

 

Well, the motors use Neodymium (varies in cost between about $40/kg and around $250/kg) and Dysprosium (just flat expensive) in the magnets. The power electronics are Silicon, like computer chips (IGBTs and diodes which could be schottky diodes, I suppose). But there's some significant manufacturing there as far as the boards and the cooling system, which is surprisingly complex. There isn't that much copper in the motors because they aren't that big, but there is a little. The rest is mostly magnetic iron in laminations. However, again, there's significant manufacturing there.

My guess is that the manufactured cost is many, many times the raw materials cost.

 

We could have a "Peak Rare-Earth" event.

 

Not really.

There's a really funny thing about "rare Earth" materials - they aren't rare at all.

The difficulty is in the fact that nearly all the relevant ones have recently been mined in China, and thus there's a state-run monopoly on them.

 

Correct, at least for replacement parts at retail pricing, but it's not a huge difference. The MSRP cost of a new Prius or Prius C hybrid transaxle is about $250-$350 more than a Corolla or Yaris automatic transaxle. Roughly $3050 for the hybrid and $2750 for the non-hybrid transaxle.

The replacement part MSRP of a Camry hybrid vs conventional automatic transaxle is closer to $600 but this may be influenced by the fact that there is a smaller volume of Camry hybrids sold.

The inverter and battery are additional costs.

 

We aren't talking about price, we're talking about cost, and we aren't talking about the transaxle, we're talking about the PSD. Do you seriously thing the cost to manufacture this:

Is higher than the cost to manufacture something like this?

 

Huh? Why? The complete transaxle is the unit of comparison. Why would you compare just a couple of planetary gear sets against a complete a fully functioning conventional transaxle?

As for cost, sure we'd like that information but Toyota isn't sharing it so we have to infer relative costs based on the replacement part retail prices.

 

The main cost in a hybrid transaxle is probably in the motors. Ordinary planetary gears and transmission cases have been made for many years and costs controls have been perfected.

This is why the transmission is listed as "Made in Japan" on the window sticker of a first generation Volt. The actual transmission case and gear sets and assembly happens in
Mexico but the motors and inverter come from Hitachi Automotive in Japan and they cost more so the sticker says "Japan".

I see that a Prius inverter is separately listed for about $2,500 and the hybrid battery is also about the same. So, at least going by retail replacement part prices, the hybrid transaxle is a little more than the inverter or battery but not by a lot.

 

The statement I was responding to was, "the PSD on the prius is more expensive that most complete transmissions on cars in its class."

The PSD is the Power Split Device, which is the planetary gear set, not the transaxle, not the motors, not the power electronics, and not the battery.