Featured Toyota false-advertised 5 minute refuel for Mirai

What is it with all the anti Toyota remarks? If you don't like the Mirai don't buy it. As a consumer I like having options and if Hydrogen is a feasable alternative to EV, or Fossil Fuel, what is the problem?

 

that pre-chilled hydrogen comes with a boat anchor tied around the neck. Cost. One challenge solved - another created.

Physics is not anti-Toyota - any more than 'truth' is anti VW.
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I've looked at some press releases and can only find statements such as this from Bob Carter (bold mine): "Unlike other electric cars that rely on a large battery for power… Mirai can be re-fueled in about 5 minutes and travel about 300 miles on a single fill-up."

2015 Toyota CES Press Preview - Bob Carter | Toyota

"Can" is not a goal, it is a verb about ability; as in, "I can bench press 250lbs."

 

Using what type of station to refuel? We've also been told there are legacy pumps out there, which are slower.

The high-speed filling would be like super-chargers. You need the new equipment and it is far from common still.

It's unfortunate that detail is missing. But there is the reality of this being a long-term effort.

 

^^^that's what I said. Two issues: (1) old plants may not be up to snuff, and (2) it would not be surprising if Ca. has chosen to partner with vendors of political choice vs. the fast fillers from EU

 

Yep goal posts keep moving.

This is not fraud, it simply is another misleading fuel cell statement. I can bench 1000 lbs .... if you put me in a low g flight. Of course those flights cost a lot less than a hydrogen fueling station that can fill a mirai in 5 minutes, which then again costs much less than one that can work reliably filling 100s of cars a day.

Existing stations were chosen with the latest prototyping technology from the fuel cell partnership which includes those european firms.
System For Doling Out 'Hydrogen Highway' Grants Is Polluted | Consumer Watchdog

Of course there is no stable technology or fair bidding. All the new stations can be thought of as prototypes. Many will only be able to dispense 100 kg of h2 a day, that is only 25 cars max if they are using 4kg. Many of the currently planned stations will have to be replaced within a short time if volumes of cars actually arrive.

All those old stations are being retrofitted. All the new ones will likely need to be retrofited or rreplaced when the fuel cell partnership figures out some other tech is needed. What if its methanol, or metal hydride, or 12,000 psi.

 

Notice the source of some misleading? The original post established an assumption, portraying an exception as if it was the norm. How many people read the statement and completely overlooked that?

Here it is again: "Toyota, Mercedes, and Hyundai claimed 1 minute of refuel time for each kilogram of hydrogen pumped into the FCV's tanks. So a 5 kilogram tank requires 5 minutes. In reality real-world drivers say it takes 4 minutes per kilogram. That means the Mirai's real-world refuel time is closer to 20 minutes..."

Notice it this time? Under all but extreme circumstances would an owner ever drive into a filling station with their tank 100% empty. The normal refill quantity would be around 75%. So, it wouldn't take as long to reach 100% capacity. They start with 25% still in the tank. Yet, that vital bit of info was not included. In other words, some people take advantage of vague statements and turn them into misleading expectations.

Also, it would be absurd to assume the newest fuel-cell vehicles would settle for old refilling hardware. Yet, that's exactly what the poster hopes we'll do. Combine that with the lack of clarity from automakers, you end up successfully misleading.

 

I don't think you get the misleading part. Remember the guy upset leased on of these fuel cell vehicles, and is unhappy. IMHO he shouldn't have been fooled, lots of people have pointed out how tough these stations will be to build. Here is a try from gas 2.0.
Hydrogen Refueling Takes Longer Than Advertised - Gas 2

The about 3 minutes came from Bob Carter last year in touting how much more convient fuel cells would be than electrics. The problem comes in if you are the second car, or the 5th car in a row. We have seen that is why california slowed their estimates of stations that could be built fast as more cars got on the road.
CA Fuel-Cell Car Drivers Say Hydrogen Fuel Unavailable, Stations Don't Work (UPDATED)

Now I don't think 100 cars a day at 3 or 5 minutes is really a technical problem, but that isn't what most of these stations are planned to be able to do. Toyota has been instrumental in the plans for fueling, even loaning the main company money so it could qualify to win the bid.

The car can do it, if someone builds the stations. The stations being built now likely won't be able to do it, so they will need to be retrofitted. Maybe they should have said about 10 minutes instead of about 3, and the infrastructure will take years to build.

Not sure what you mean here. The members of the california fuel cell partnership picked out the hardware and vendors. Toyota favored the vendors that were picked and given money. Toyota knew exactly what was out there and being planned when it made the claims.

Will california have 86 stations that can do 8 minute refills in 2021? Probably, but not if too many cars get filled in a row. We will see in 6 years. That will take longer to be able to conviently fill up a fcv on trips.

 

not really as vague as you may hope. Several CA hydrigen stations are unreliable .... so it'd be easy to imagine the one you pull up to - not working. Read the reports from users. That requires you to find another station - and get there with a lower hydrogen volume
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Feasible is the rub of the issue. Technically, hydrogen can be used to power a car along the same paradigm as gasoline. I don't see it as being feasible from a practical use of resources stand point in the US.

This is a huge country geographically. The required infrastructure to efficiently support a hydrogen FCEV fleet of cars across that area will cost billions. Most of that will come from the government for the same reasons private companies didn't go to the moon first.

FCEVs don't have to be powered by hydrogen though. There are environmental pluses to putting the hydrogen in the tank. We might see advances to make the hydrogen less costly, but we might also see advances to close that advantage gap of hydrogen for other renewable fuels.

Depending on environmental conditions, a Type A station can take up to 15 minutes to fill 5kg of hydrogen in a 10k psi tank. The 3 minute fill that Carter and the hydrogen lobby touted is actually the fastest fill these state of the art stations can do. The nominal time is 5 to 7 minutes.

 

If a phonemaker sells you phone able to recharge in X minutes, but you don't have a high-speed recharger, what's the problem?

If an automaker sells you a vehicle able to refill in X minutes, but you don't have a high-speed pump, what's the problem?

Sounds more like denial of the true situation.

 

Who? When?

Don't make generalizations.

Toyota is very thoroughly questioning prospective buyers, ensuring they fully understand the current nature of the market before extending ownership opportunity.

 

What happens when you plug a USB 3.0 device into a USB 2.0 slot?

What happens when you connect an AC wireless device to a N router?

Slow performance from those devices isn't fault of the device manufacturer.

It's not fraud, it's the need for good labeling and properly informed consumers.

 

These are current stations, can you find any reports on the new stations?

 

What about in a month

 

Well this sure seems like false statements from folks who don’t have a Mirai and have never been to a Hydrogen fuel station. I fill up a full tank 270 miles per my driving style in under 5 minutes. The same amount of time it takes me to fill up my Prius with gas. No smells and clean pumps are a plus.

 

False and more false statements. Sorry but it’s true within minutes I am on my way while on the other side of town people plug into Superchargers and sit in their cars counting the the cars lined up waiting for their turn. It’s only gonna get worse as more Tesla’s hit the roads.

 

The SAE protocol that allows you to fill 5 minutes can result in it taking 15 minutes if the hydrogen in the car or at the station is too warm.

If more hydrogen cars get on the road, current stations may not be able to handle a rush. After so many cars, the fill tank is empty, then your waiting 20 minutes or longer to fill your tank as the compress is directly filling it.

The next Mirai is getting its 400 mile range by having a bigger tank, so it will take longer than your Mirai.