Featured Car & Driver editor on diesel scandal (easy to fix) Autoline VW volkswagen

At a minimum, the mileage will go down as fuel is used to purge the NOx trap. There is also a high probability the acceleration, the 0-60 times, will increase as injector timing is changed to minimize NOx formation. This will also reduce mileage. But emission risks remain.

We don't know if everything was sized to handle trips longer than the EPA test cycle. If the NOx capture trap is too small, the slope might yet be positive so by the end of a tank, the NOx output levels have already gone out of spec.

The risk is whether the HC generated to purge the NOx remains under the thresholds. Not expecting to run so many purge cycles, it is possible the cars will exceed the HC levels beyond the EPA cycle duration.

Fixing emissions will hurt mileage and very likely make them just as fun to drive as a Prius . . . maybe a 2001-03 model.

FYI, I had listened to the podcast before and one take-away, the cheat was probably designed and implemented close to 2007 due to lead times in engineering versus manufacturing.

Bob Wilson

 

I don't think there is an easy fix here.
#1. No easy fix for VW's reputation.
#2. The vehicles were sold "fraudulently" in relationship to their emissions standards and on the road/engine performance. Since they used a defeat mechanism to pass the test, that put the vehicle in a state that did NOT exist in regular usage, even if the ECU can be reprogrammed I sincerely doubt the it can be reprogrammed in such a manner that would allow the vehicle to simultaneously pass emissions standards AND maintain the same MPG and operating vehicle performance standards that it did before.

I'm really assuming if it WAS possible to have the VW clean diesels pass emissions AND perform as they did "normally" then VW would of never employed a defeat mechanism to start with.

Easy Fix? No.

 

And no longer sold in the USA because they can not meet the emissions requirement (aka., the original Insight.) The same result as the 2016 2.0L TDI cars. Their certificate has been withheld and VW also stopped selling the 2015s still on the dealer lots.

Bob Wilson

 

There are two emission control systems at play here, with different outcomes on whether the fix is easy, and whether it will have negative outcomes on the car's driving behaviour.

The LNT models are the ones that exceed spec the highest. A fix will likely end up affecting the cars as you said, since, at the very least, more fuel will be used to regenerate the NOx trap.

The SCR ones use the DEF or urea. If the fix doesn't require adjusting fuel trims, then the only change will be the use of more fluid. The fuel economy and performance should remain unchanged.

I thought Honda stopped selling the first Insight because it was simply a poor seller, and may have cost them more to build.

 

In the big picture, what does it matter if this cars don't get fixed?
The owners of these cars were as duped as the EPA and the rest of us by VW. It isn't like the owners of diesels and gasoline cars that purposely defeat their emission controls. It was mentioned in one of these threads that average NOx emission from these cars was 1.6g/mile; the intro to the paper said that the value was 6 times the spec limit. How about we hold VW's new cars, no matter the fuel, to a higher standard to balance these higher emissions down to T2B5, and leave the cars currently in private ownership as is, and call it even.

 

Of course they passed the tests. That's the problem, they were passing them in a fraudulent manner. And IMO you're looking at it in just the reverse way. The vehicles operate "as they do"...and switched to "clean mode" in the test bay. So the issue is what was happening when the cars were in the test bay, and evidently allegedly programmed to give a false representation. VW didn't "program" the vehicles to go into a "polluting mode", they evidently DID program them to operate in a different manner to pass specifically the tests while the tests were happening.

I'm not going to tell VW owners what is or isn't a "big deal" in regards to changes in performance. I'm guessing most will be upset regardless.

 

You think you'd be happy driving in that mode all the time? It wasn't designed to be an operational mode for the vehicle. It was designed to cheat the test, when the vehicle wasn't moving.

AGAIN...

Seems pretty obvious to me, but if running clean, and operating well was ALWAYS possible, then VW would of never tried to cheat the system to start with.- There would of been no reason to do so.

I'm glad it's not my problem. But until VW offers whatever fix they offer, and we get feedback from those owners that do accept that fix, we're simply making assumptions about how vehicle on the street performance will be affected.

VW sold their clean diesels promoting the idea that they were a "no compromise" vehicle. Clean emissions, Great Performance, and Great Gas Mileage. People conceivably bought them, believing those parameters were being met HONESTLY.

There is no "easy answer" because if allegations are true, those parameters were being met FRAUDULENTLY.

 

all the cars should be brought up to compliance at the time of sale or mfg., whatever the epa uses. if mpg or performance suffer, vw should compensate the owners.

 

Some people keep overlooking that fact. Software can send back false data... even in the test mode. It's not rocket-science. It's simple programming.

If the ODB-II output wasn't needed... which is software controlled data... all they'd need to do for certification would be attach sensor equipment to the tailpipe. That's not the can though, hence the problem.

 

It sounds like the 2015+ models do meet emissions requirements, but still contain the bypass software in an inactive state. The EPA may have withheld the certificate in order to force the total removal of that code, or to force VW to clean up the older cars before being able to sell any more new ones.

CleanMPG Forums - View Single Post - 482,000 VW TDIs Produce 5 to 35Xs the NOx Beyond Federal Emissions Requirements

 

How about that: Along with satisfactory fix VW will raise a global fund to compensate every owner that will make the fix (either compellingly or volluntarily).

 

If accuracy were important, I would care but repetition does not make it so. After all, it is so easy to cite sources: Lean-burn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bob Wilson

 

I have a hard time believing that the fix can simply be implemented in ECU programming. If you follow the timeline, the EPA DID question VW sometime in the middle of 2014. At the end of 2014, they did issue some kind of software update/recall and was supposed to fix the issue (at least attempted to fix the issue). When the EPA went to see if the update fixed anything, thats when they realized it didnt and called them out on the cheating.

So if you were VW and you knew the EPA was on your arse about your shady emissions and you DO have the power to fix it in the ECU, wouldnt you have done it during the first "recall"? Why would you wait until the EPA has gone public with your cheating scandal before actually doing it?

VW Diesel Crisis: Timeline of Events

 

on a ridiculous note;

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VW was likely trying to fix it without changing anything that would leave the customer unhappy at that time.

 

It is a very sad situation for the owners of VW in the USA. A friend of mine has a 2015 Passat and is very upset with the whole situation and hopes VW is forced to buy back every car that has been sold under false advertising. I can't see VW surviving this in the USA. Every time I see a VW on the road I look to see if it is a TDI, and feel sorry for the owner!