1.5 cents per mile instead of gasoline tax

I said that we should NOT tax PHEV and EVs in the short term at all, but rather give them incentives. And we should increase the gas taxes, because, DUH, we have to anyway based on the federal CAFE mandate. When/if we get to the point where electric miles (via EV and/or PHEV) are a significant percentage of total miles on the roads, then we'll have to figure out how to tax those. This should be after we stop giving incentives to buy them. Maybe it is via odometer reading. If so, we could require PHEVs to have one odometer for gas and another one for EV mode. It is essentially, already there, just not as a legal odometer.

Mike

 

Your car may be cleaner for the air but the pump tax is for roads and bridges. Your car is no different than mine in that regard unless you fill your tires with helium to take some of the weight off the road. The tax at the pump can be set appropriately to not require any additional tax on my or other's efficient vehicles. Those who choose Hummers and Tahoes will pay more and that's their choice.

 

How bout coloring electricity used in BEV? that way we know that tax had been collected when we open the battery

 

Do you then agree that I should get a tax rebate for the taxes used for clean air initiatives?

I agree. Then why should I have to pay more taxes than you because you get about 50 MPGs and I get about 70 MPGs? Why should you be exempt from an additional tax because you DO drive the most efficient HV. You aren't paying your fair for road maintenance either only in a car that pollutes more than my PIP.

So now you agree that a tax at the pump is the best solution? But different tax rates on different vehicles? Bureaucracy run amok! And every time you present a plan, you find a way to exempt yourself.

My PIP does weigh less than a Hummer, but under your plan, the Hummer is exempt from an additional annual tax for road maintenance. I ask again, where do you arbitrarily draw the mpg line for an additional tax? Let me stick my neck out and say that all vehicles (including motorcycles) should have to pay an additional annual tax for road maintenance based on vehicle weight, if that's the criteria you want to use. That way, you and I will pay the same amount in an annual tax for road maintenance.

 

Is not electricity taxed? Doesn't the government get money from Plug-Ins of all sorts? (Hint-On you next electric bill, see what your tax rate is for electric energy compared to your tax rate for gasoline energy.) After averaging the miles as you suggest above, just consider the equivalent taxes from electricity as belonging to the road costs. What is your thoughts about that instead of double taxing PHEV and EV users?

 

What alternate fuels are untaxed? Serious question.

 

Natural gas is taxed, but here it isn't near the rate gasoline is at the gallon equivalent, which is part of the attraction of using it. Vehicles running it get roughly the same fuel economy, so they are paying less than if they were still using gasoline or diesel.

 

I don't have the absolute answer. I have not said I should be exempt nor should I be penalized, I being generic for any hybrid or other high mileage vehicle owner. You should probably get the same tax rebate for air taxes that I get for school taxes since my kids are long out of school. Who said you should pay more taxes? I asked if you shouldn't pay equal taxes absent helium filled tires since the road knows no difference between your car or mine. I never said tax at the pump was wrong and I didn't say different rates as that would be impossible at the pump. And the Hummer pays more for their added weight by getting under 20mpg thereby paying more per mile by consumption.

 

...you can ask that to the 10 states already charging an extra fee for plug-ins. But let's face it, gasoline taxes approaching 30% in some states maybe more if the price gaso goes down. I am not aware of any alternate fuel taxed so heavily. The reason for the gaso taxes depends on your state, but generally it is for the roads. It's going to be up to each state to decide EV tax policy - obviously California wants to encourage Plug-ins, but my state does not want to (so far). Not sure Federal gaso tax policy but generally the states get back what they put into the highway trust fund.

To date I believe all states treat PHEV=HEV for fees (no fees except Idaho =$75/yr extra). In the case of Idaho, BEV gets $150 fee I believe. If I were to fix this Idaho tax scheme, I might make hybrids $zero fee and maybe PHEV would be $75 and BEV would be $150.

Yes this would really screw the PiP owners who do not plug in. But first of all, that's a California phenom. if we wanted to get really fancy, would could contact the auto manufacturers to calculate %EV for each plug-in model and adjust the fee accordingly.

 

Then what are you saying?

In California we pay taxes for education for life through our property taxes. I happily pay these taxes because I feel that education is essential to the future of our grandchildren.

Then you should be paying a road maintenance surtax equal to one of my former cars, a VW that got 25MPG and weighed about the same as your Prius!

?????

Yet you pay less at the pump per mile by consumption than a car of equal weight but only gets 25 MPGs. Is that equitable?

 

I bet we see more states move to just charging every vehicle more to register each year. This just makes it equal payment.

 

You contradict yourself! A PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle) is a "plug-in"! Do 10 States charge an extra fee for plug-ins or do they not?

Once again you exempt yourself! You pay less for road maintenance at the pump than a vehicle that gets 25 MPGs, yet you want to exempt yourself from an additional tax because you are more efficient than a 25 MPG car. That is an inconvenient truth!

I guess you are alright with that as long as you are not the one being screwed!

Wow! more government bureaucracy! to collect some inconsequential tax from a small portion of the population who are trying to do the right thing. And every PIP owner drives their car differently; there is no "one size fits all."

 

I'm okay with that as long as those extra fees are used for road maintenance.

 

Somewhere around 10 states charge a fee for EV's off the top of my head we have WA, GA, VA, ID, WY apparently its 8 states now, but MI and WI are thinking about it

 

You are confused! A PIP is not classified as an EV (electric vehicle). It is classified as a PHEV. A Tesla is an EV (well more correctly a BEV - Battery Electric Vehicle) - they are two completely different concepts. You are mixing up apples and oranges. I know, they are both sort of round, so they must be the same.

 

I'm sorry, what? You received a tax credit for the PIP from the electric vehicle tax credit, its an electric vehicle. What do you think (P)H(EV) stand for Plug-in electric vehicle. There is a difference in some states on how they handle PHEVs versus BEVs (battery electric vehicles with only the plug as fuel source), but the federal government does not make a distinction nor does my state (texas likes all plug-in electric vehicles whether they have a hybrid gasoline engine or not).
Some states favor BEVs (Caliornia comes to mind with an extra rebate of $1000 and 3 or 4 zev credits over a phev) some punish BEVs (Virginia comes to mind).

SMUG for phevs is an attitude that probably is behind this oregon scheme. It does not sound good. While I support no additional road taxes for plug-ins, its because the numbers are so small and they are in the initial adopter phase. They are not going to save the world, they simply help us use less gas. A fairly clean new non-hybrid like a focus or a mazda 3 is not very damaging to the air versus an older model car. We shouldn't pretend using less oil, a good goal for the country, makes someone better than anyone else.

 

No, I didn't, but I presume the original owner did (it was originally a leased car). What does a tax credit have to do with road maintenance?

Close but no cigar. PHEV = Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle in order to differentiate from a completely electric vehicle BEV = Battery Electric Vehicle.

And therein lies one of the problems!

How do you come to that conclusion? If you become familiar with the Oregon proposal, it actually favors gas guzzlers and penalizes HVs (like your car), PHEVs, BEVs, and other alternative fuel vehicles.

Agree, the Oregon plan would put a GPS in almost every vehicle to monitor your driving habits and whereabouts!

Agree

Agree, but it also shouldn't make someone worse than anyone else by charging an extra tax for using less fuel. It would be like like charging you an extra tax because you use less fuel than a 25 MPG car. How does that sound to you?

 

No need to ask. Both of us already know why states tax anything that moves, breaths, or has revenue potential. Because they can. That is the essence of my point. The real tricky difference is not the tax between fuels. Fuel taxes can be adjusted, corrected, modified, or revoked routinely as a normal government function....and will be. The crux of the problem starting with the Oregon system is the taxing of pure behavior. Bear with me on the following future of mileage tax:
1) Tax mileage.
2) (Some years later) Tax mileage on a two tier system, like double tax for everything over 100k year. (Fairness!)
3) Tax mileage on a finely graded tier system based on heavy the traffic, so those those cluttering rush hour get hammered more for overloading the roads. (More fairness!)
4) Tax based on where a person travels. They should pay more for inner city access. (Pragmatic Fairness!)
5) Tax based on "work" vs. recreation mileage. (Even more fairness!)
6) Tax "bad mileage" at a punitive rate vs. "good mileage". (The ultimate in fairness!!!)

While this is a fun thought exercise, there is some truth to it. What is guaranteed is future governments will want to "improve" it for more government revenue while using a "fairness" excuse for why it needs to be modified.

(PS. Note how the government must know your lifestyle to exacting detail to be fair about taxing.)

 

umm, you were talking about deserving a tax credit. Well the original owner got one rolled into the lease. Some of this was part of the lower cost you payed to buy it used.

According to the federal government, who want more more of these things your car is a EV, yep, its definied in the tax code. You have the smallest battery for the government to define it as an EV, orignally the DOE wanted it to be 5 kwh, but toyota convinced congress 4 kwh was an EV too. Yes it is a hybrid too. You have two fuel soruces plug-in electricity and gasoline.

And therein lies one of the problems. The federal government doesn't want to tax your electric miles, but some states do.

As I have said on this thread, I don't like the oregon plan. I favor raising the gas tax, but I'm in texas not oregon, and they have the right to enact their stupid taxes just like other states. What the oregon proposal would do is tax all the cars the same for state tax rate. That would look like lower taxes to those that get less than 20 mpg and higher taxes for those that get more than 20 mpg. I would simply raise the state gas tax to $0.40/gallon, but I'm not in charge, nor do I want to be. The new tax would introduce ineffieincy and waste, but California and New Jersey have more ineffiency and waste, so how do we judge what each state can do. I just don't think this new tax is a good idea, but hey even with it oregon probably won't be as mismanaged as some other states.

Eventually if plug-ins get popular all states will find a way to tax them. Since they are less than 1% of the miles, it really makes not much difference for the next 5 years or so, so I favor not adding the tax at this time.

 

And what does that have to do with an additional tax for road maintenance? The original owner got a Federal Tax credit for purchasing a "greener" car.

I think you should be charged an additional tax road tax because you get around 50 MPG and you pay fewer gas taxes than the car that gets 25 MPG

And what does that have to do with an additional tax for road maintenance? If I don't plug in, I will get the same 50 MPGs you do, and yet you would not be taxed an additional tax and I would! When I drive those 12 electric miles, I am nothing more than a luxurious golf cart. Golf carts are permitted on the public roads in my community, yet no one is talking about charging golf carts an additional tax for road maintenance.