1.5 cents per mile instead of gasoline tax

Why? I SAVE the State money in pollution control measures by driving a relatively non-polluting car! Next you will want to charge me for generating my own electricity through solar! You should run for political office!

 

You're doing fine LDB. You're bumping in to plug-in advocates who feel plug-ins should be given a pass on paying road taxes.

 

Not at all, you are obfuscating! I currently pay road tax at the pump just like everyone else....except BEVs. That is who you have an argument with! It is the gas guzzlers who feel they should be pay much less for road taxes.

 

I favor the per/gallon tax idea so yes fuel efficient cars save at the pump, which is fair because they paid more for darn car. As far as EV's charge them like a Prius. As far as PHEV that's hard one, but midway tween EV and hybrid.

 

They are clearly on the 'gov'ment is bad' side. But most of their damaging protests are against businesses.

 

So the same I guess? avg of 2 equals?

 

But the Prius pays at the pump (except Idaho recently added $75 hybrid fee) , so the EV and PHEV have to be fee-based. Virginia I think we charge EV 64+50 = $114 which is about what a Prius would pay. Not sure but I think we handle PHEV like hybrid (no fee).

 

So you want to penalize people who drive cars that pollute less, are easier on the environment through less oil drilling, less dependent on foreign oil, generally easier on the roads through lighter weight, etc? Yes, HVs, PHEVs, and BEVs and other alternative fuel vehicles theoretically get some break currently as far as road maintenance is concerned, but they more than make up for it in savings to government in other ways.

 

Not true...I am suggesting fuel efficient 100% gaso cars like Prius keep their current system per gallon. Then I am suggesting charging alt fuel cars like a Prius. If your state is pro-Plug In and wants to give Plug-ins a bigger break, that's OK by me as far as state tax goes. Not sure how I would do Federal component.

 

I have no idea what you are saying! Is there a typo in there somewhere? Either you are taxing a Prius extra or you are not. No Prius is 100% gasoline. It is a hybrid (HV) (or plug-in PHEV) which means that it operates on traction battery some of the time. I'm old so can you spell it out to me more clearly, please.

 

I don't think they should get a pass, but I think a fair level of taxation on them will do very little to address governments' revenue shortfall due to increased fuel efficiency. I think taxing them on Prius level fuel consumption is fair. With a 15k annual miles, that is only around $56 a year in regards to the federal gas tax. Add in the extra taxes paid for electricity consumption for the car, add up the few BEVs actually on the road, and there will still be a big chunk of lost revenue.

At this point, I say don't tax plug ins extra for road use at this time. They are still a car segment just starting out with few cars driving on the roads; it is another, minor, incentive to encourage their growth. If they must be taxed, the government should also address the lost revenue from improved fuel economy, and vehicles converted to natural gas and propane.

The Prius, and other non-plug in hybrids, get all their energy from gasoline. The electricity they use is made onboard from gasoline, or recaptured from regenerative braking. The speeding up for the regenerative braking is done with gasoline.

 

Prius hybrid I am calling 100% gaso because it does not take electricity or any other outside power source. So for hybrids, or any other car that runs on gasoline-only, the per gallon tax at the pump is fine. I personally don't favor extra fees for hybrids or any other 100% gaso vehicles, even if they get higher MPG.

When you get into Plug_ins, now we have electricity as an alternate fuel source, and the question comes up how should Plug_ins pay road taxes? And general idea is an add-on fee ...about 10 states now have add-on fee for electrics. Believe GA is $200/yr for EVs the rest of the states are lower. That approach seems reasonable.

My approach: the add-on fee for EV should be (it's up to the state) but no greater than what a 50-MPG gaso vehicle such as Prius would pay.

I would actually like to see the Feds give guidelines on proper taxing of hybrids and EV's, and naturally, I am hoping the Feds agree with me that hybrids HEV should not be taxed extra. Recently I learned Congress is in fact dealing with this EV fee issue, apparently Congress's proposed new transport bill will make some suggestions about adding a small fee to EV owners (assuming the bill ever passes as drafted).

 

So if I don't plug in my PIP and run on gasoline only, you still want to tax me an extra annual fee?

That is because your approach conveniently exempts you an extra annual fee! Now there is an "inconvenient truth!"

My PIP is 100% gasoline other than the 12 miles I get when I plug into my own solar electrical source that I paid for up front, with all the taxes added in. So you are in favor of taxing me 18 cents ($.015 x 12 miles) every time I plug in. My guess is that the government bureaucracy is going to cost a couple of dollars to collect that 18 cents from me. How is that economically efficient? Someone said they thought that $75 annual fee is "fair" for PIPs. Let's see, I would have to plug in 417 times a year ($75/.18) for the government to just break even! My local electric company charges me $2 a month to tell me that I have generated more electricity than I used and I owe nothing on my bill! I think it is interesting that you want to exempt yourself from an additional annual tax because you "only" get 50mpg whereas I get about 70 mpg and you want to tax me. Where do you arbitrarily draw the mpg line? Now if I drove a gasoline only car and got 70 mpg, I presume you wouldn't tax me extra. So it is not the 70 mpg that you want to tax, you just want to penalize PIP drivers because they drive a more environmentally friendly car than you do!

My PIP is not classified as a BEV (battery electric vehicle). It is classifed as a HV (hybrid vehicle) just like yours. I think it would be more reasonable to charge gasoline Prii an annual fee and exempt PIPs because they are more environmentally friendly.

Therefore you think that PIPs should pay more through annual fee than gasoline (which my PIP is) Prii or BEVs. Again, it is interesting than you write the rules to barely eliminate yourself from the additional annual tax.

My suggestion is to leave things as is, with taxes collected at the pump.

 

Let's backup a bit on this....

First off, assume there are no PHEV or BEVs. We have a federal mandate for CAFE to increase from whatever it is today (25 ish?) to 50-ish mpg by 2025 or thereabouts. No matter what we do with alt fuel vehicles, we will have to raise the gas tax by roughly 2x just to keep up with the expected (required) fuel efficiency in the next 10 years. And this assumes everyone drives about the same and the costs for maintenance do not increase. This means gas drivers should EXPECT to pay 7-8% more per gallon every year at a minimum.

Name a politician that honestly wants to start with this as a baseline. IMO you won't find one.
After we've solved that political football, then we can consider how to handle PHEV and EV.

IMO we should be giving incentives and rebates to EVs and PHEVs and at the same time talking about how we are going to tax them for road maintenance. I'm NOT saying we should never tax them for road maintenance ... but I am saying that we shouldn't use the minor number of EVs on the road as the scapegoat as for why we MUST (IMO) raise the gas tax.

Mike

 

Agree 100%. It is a political football equivalent of "bait and switch" sales tactics, design as a cover up for avg Joe Dumb. Unavoidable tax hike dressed into justice clothing.

 

Which has been the case in the past.

I will ask you the same question as WJTracy, why should you and I be penalized an extra annual tax because we drive PIPs and get 10% to 20% better MPGs than a gasoline only Prius. Where do you arbitrarily draw the MPG line? If we drive our PIPs as a gasoline only car, should we still have to pay an additional annual tax? Why should you and I be penalized for driving a fuel efficient car, compared to a gasoline PIP?

 

I'm all for low emissions. A plug in only vehicle isn't emission free though. There are emissions when creating the power that is fed through the cord to the plug in vehicle. It also isn't weightless so there is wear to the road the same as my car. I believe everyone should pay a portion of the cost of the roads they use. I believe it should be as fairly assessed as possible. I don't believe anyone is "special" enough they should be exempt nor are their vehicles.

 

True, I burn about 10 gallons of gasoline a month. But my electric generation is emissions free because I have a PV system on the roof of my house. Should I be exempt from additional annual tax?

Agree and that is why road tax collected at the pump is the most fair system. If the taxes collected are not sufficient to maintain the roads,,,,,,,,,then raise the taxes at the pump!

It is thankfully raining here today (should help the wildfire situation) and I have lots of time to spend on the Internet! BTW, my PV system still produces electricity even on cloudy, overcast days!

 

So you (as in anyone with a similar vehicle and pv system) should pay a much lower share than everyone else because you are special. Got it.

 

Yes! I drive a vehicle that pollutes less than your car. I drive a vehicle that is more environmentally friendly due to less dependent o "drill baby drill" than your car. I drive a vehicle that is less dependent on foreign oil and promotes a better balance of trade than your car. I drive a vehicle that is more self sufficient because of my personal PV system than your car.

I feel no more special than you who does not feel you should pay an additional annual tax fee. I pay at the pump just like you do. Let me put this another way. How about ALL cars that get MORE than 25 miles per gallon should pay an additional tax because they are not paying their fair share of road maintenance at the pump! How does that sound?

In fact, I feel so "special" that I think I should get a tax credit for driving a PHEV!