FIRST DRIVE REPORT: 2016 TOYOTA MIRAI

Pretty cool, we have some more information from the car and driver review.
The Future

We have a price for fuel $13.99, and fuel economy with car and drivers lead foot, and their calculation of fuel costs using their lead foot driving of the the camry hybrid as well. Will hydrogen prices be down a lot in 3 years when the free fuel runs out? History says no, not that fast. That makes the lease much less risky than buying the car.

There photos show a die on date or 2029, which probably means the hydrogen tanks are good for 14 years before they need to be replaced. I don't think that should be a concern to anyone buying it.

 

Which photo? I couldn't find it.

I didn't' understand the concern to begin with. It's a Toyota and they ain't gonna release something that important that doesn't last the lifetime of the vehicle.

 

I've been assuming H20 would be dropped out the tailpipe as the car is driven just like a/c condensation is dripped out from the HVAC system. But if so, why would there be a need for a dump at then end of a drive?

I haven't thoroughly read the Owners Manual but everything I have found leads me to believe the system doesn't drop water as it's being made. Here's what the OM says on Page 97 of the characteristics and precautions section: ■Tailpipe ●When the power switch is turned off and the fuel cell system is stopped (P. 189) after driving, exhaust water is discharged. Be careful when standing behind the vehicle to avoid dripping or spraying. ●It is possible to manually purge the exhaust. This may be desirable, for instance, before parking in a garage. This is done by pressing the H2O switch. (P. 189)


IDK, maybe it needs to do both (drip and drop).

 

Its in the gallery, and was commented on.


Its small but when you blow it up it says with D outside the photo D"O NOT REFUEL AFTER 2029/11". I think this is probably good news as their was speculation the tanks would only last 10 years or less then need to be replaced. I'm sure they have to do some testing to make sure the tanks are good during that period though, but probably not too expensive, and covered under warranty.

My favorite from the gallery is this, when they decided to drink the water to see how it tasted.

 

I'm pretty sure it drips as you drive and then uses a fan to blow out any residual water when you turn off the car. In order to avoid excessive water in the garage, you can push a button to blow the water out before parking.

 

The simple math is 1kg of hydrogen should produce 9kg of water in the 50-80 miles it may take the driver. That is 9L of water. I doubt they want to hold onto over 2 gallons of water for every kg of hydrogen so yes it must release it either as liquid water or water vapor as you drive.

The 4 ounce flush probably is the residual water that you probably need to pump out to get it fast or will drip slowly where you may not like it. I haven't done the math but the Toyota Sequoia probably releases more water, but its as water vapor, so you don't see it.

 

No...I think the 14 years is just like propane tanks. This was discussed (not definitively) during my test drive. After 14 years you'll have to have the tanks tested (like a hydro-static leak test) to verify they are still good for, probably another 5 years.

It would make no sense that at 13 years 11 months and 29 days you would have a tank capable of holding 10Kpsi and 2 days later it has to be replaced.

Mike

 

Sorry this is not a portable tank on a gas grill, its a fuel tank on a vehicle. There are different regulations. Cracks or hydrogen attacks that may miss inspection may make the tanks unsafe. Here is the equivallent from natural gas tanks


What Happens When Your CNG Tanks Expire? - Article - Government Fleet

 

From the Mirai Owners Manual (bold mine):

The hydrogen-related components (such as the tanks, pipelines, etc.) have expiration dates established by law. Vehicles with expired hydrogen-related components must not be used. The hydrogen-related components must be replaced with new ones if their expiration dates have passed. The expiration date is written on the inside of the fuel door as the limit date of filling. Consult any authorized Toyota dealer or repairer, or another duly qualified and equipped professional.

 

So, go to Toyota dealer or repairer or another qualified professional to check it out and they'll give you a new expiration date. I think Mike is right too.

 

No the US law says after that date it must be replaced, not repaired, or the vehicle is not allowed on the road. That is if it follows the same pattern as the other gasous fuel cng, and as fotomoto found is in the mirai owners manual. CNG tanks must be inspected every 3 years, I assume there will be some similar item for the mirai, but it will be included during those lease times. Then again, I don't think anyone will be out there trying to catch cheaters, so if you want you can probably keep filling up a bad tank. If it explodes in an accident, or simply leaks, I doubt insurance will cover the accident, but what are the odds of many of today's mirai on the road in 2029?

I agree its not a big deal. Toyota expects less than 300 people to purchase a mirai in north america by the end of 2017. The rest will lease and turn in there car long before the tank needs replacement.Maybe 10 mirai that run into this problem by the end of 2030.

 

And how much does that cost? And who reminds you? And if you don't get it checked what happens? does it invalidate your insurance or do you commit an offence?

Here items under high pressure such as hydraulic hoses on a digger must be checked annually, and it's not cheap. The person doing the testing obviously has expensive insurance costs. A 14 year old 10,000 psi tank is serous stuff.

And what if the car was in an accident but the tank wasn't obviously damaged. Do they replace it as a matter of course like they do with child seats regardless of obvious damage just to be safe? Do they test it at great expense to be safe? Or do they just cross fingers and hope for the best?

I can see the Mirai being an expensive nightmare and insurance companies will be very wary and charge a premium. I can see these being written off for minor damage because it'll be just such a problem fixing them correctly, and more so than an EV. EVs look simple by comparison.

 

Again, according to the Mirai OM, the hydrogen system (tanks, lines, valves) is checked for leaks, etc at every service visit. I would "assume" they would be the ones to notify the owner they are no longer in compliance.

 

But are there not rules on who is qualified to inspect 10,000 psi tanks? A traditional mechanic is changing oil and cleaning brakes. Surely he'll need additional training and registration to inspect and certify such a high pressure vessel?

Maybe the regs differ. 10,000 psi is a bomb. It's not 40 psi like in a car tyre or the pressure of a brake pipe. It's serious stuff. If extra training a registration is need then that'll add to service costs and limit who can service the car.

One of the benefits of a BEV is that the service costs are lower as there's not much work to do. With a FCV it appears it'll cost more one way or another. Toyota are already absorbing the manufacturing cost of the car to a signicant extent. Now they'll be absorbing addition service costs too.

 

Paintball tanks with 4,500 psi are rebuildable by users. What's up with that?


Ninja Paintball 50 ci 4500 psi Carbon Fiber HPA Tank System | VIPs Save 10% & Free Shipping - Paintball-Online.com

 

The car would be far out of waranty in 2029, so I doubt the dealer inspects unless you ask them to do it. With cng in texas, the state inspection would fail, and you wouldn't get a sticker. You can drive like that for awhile until a police officer notices that the car doesn't have a valid sticker. Then you stop driving the vehicle or replace the fuel tank.

In California I believe there is no state inspection. I don't know how you would get caught unless you get in an accident But I don't understand if you have the dockets to be an initial adopter and buy not lease a fcv, why you would you ignore safety regulations.

CO2 is not a flamible motor fuel, and is not regulated for fire potential. If you filled it with cng or hydrogen and ran a car with it, it would not be legal.

 

Different regs then. I understand these paintball tanks are not legal in Europe or the UK.

 

I just can't believe these 10,000 psi tanks are allowed in an almost uncontrolled environment such as a private car. There was a fire in a truck carrying a propane and it caused the police to have a mile exclusion zone around it whilst it vented and was made safe.



Gas Tanker On Fire Shuts Down Motorway

These vehicles need special insurances and regulations, yet it's ok to have a car driving around with two potential 'bombs' attached to it? If your petrol, diesel, hybrid or electric car catches fire you just stand well back as the flames are put out. With a FCV you'd better be in the next county.

It just seems an issue that's glossed over and ignored. If a Mirai catches fire do you need to evacuate the street?

 

It's more an issue for the secondary owners with the average car age being 11 or so years. I know traction batteries, transmissions, and engines can all be big ticket items for other old cars, but those parts don't have a legal end of life date, and the car owner can keep pushing his luck on getting stranded by such parts if in really bad shape.

It just means a hydrogen car using high pressure tanks will likely depreciate faster than other cars.

Assuming the owner is the type to bring the car in for such services. IIRC, the CNG tanks legally require an annual visual inspection. I don't know if they also require the 3, 5, and 10 year inspections and hydrostatic testing for general gas holding cylinders.

They are real low volume compared to a fuel tank on a car, and CO2 isn't flammable and explosive.

 

12 gallons of gasoline has more energy then a hydrogen tank I believe. I've seen auto accidents when the gas tank was punctured. It was an immediate fire ball, and four teenage children didn't get out. So, a gas tank is also a "bomb". I believe both energy sources could be dangerous.

When it makes financial sense, I hope to own a fuel cell car in 20 or so years.