Why Do Fuel-Cell Vehicles Make Electric-Car Advocates So Crazy?

Why do FC's drive plugins crazy? Let's flip it around. The anti plugin "reply" graphic didn't really go far enough .... didn't do justice as a retort. Why not take the smear campaign to Toyota. See if it drives THEM crazy. Use the same "below the belt" / disingenuous tactics. How about this for an equally half truth campaign;

Think plug in batteries are expensive to replace? Hydrogen cars have them too. ..... BUT.....
- Hydrogen cars have lots of 'extra' expensive parts that will have to quickly be replaced.
- Hydrogen destroys its own fuel lines. They'll have regularly be replaced - as they will eventually become embrittled & fail.
- hydrogen fuel tanks have to be replaced, or eventually, unlike an ol' fashion gas tank, they will eventually fail.
- hydrogen can only be distilled economically from natural gas. Congertulations - you're still a polluter. Plus, the oil companies still have you on the hook. You will never be able to refuel at home.
- hydrogen fuel stacks have to be replaced. The longer it runs, the less and less power your car will have. It's far from being a powerful car anyway.
- hydrogen refueling stations even have to be replaced, but can't if the tax dollars run out .....

That's just a rough draft. Plenty of other points ..... Do you think that would drive Toyota crazy to find a full page of that in the weekend paper or maybe a 30 second add during Superbowl?
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Who would pay for that advertising. Toyota has $60B and they say that is plenty to support fuel cells. Tesla, BMW, Nissan, and Chevy all are busy working on plug-ins. Tesla would prefer not to talk about fuel cells anymore, as musk said the last time he was asked the question. He said wait 3 years and look where they are. It will be pretty clear.

What will be clear? There should be less than 20,000 fcv total on the road world wide then. Its the cost, its the fuel, its the infrastructure. You don't need to advertise against them, because they won't hurt sales. There is no lobby that is ant-fuel cells, it just is people would rather spend less government money, or spend it on something else.

BMW won't do that ad because they are partnered with toyota. Chevy because its partnered with honda, which is coming out with a fcv next year. Nissan because it is going to take the japanese and american government money instead of fighting, and come out with a fuel cell, maybe a plug-in fuel cell probably in 2017 with partners ford and mercedes. All of these companies have blown a lot of R&D money on fuel cells, GM $2.5B pre-bankruptcy, and have engineers working on them, although they would stop if the government stopped asking for them. gm, bmw, and nissan support plug-ins more than fuel cell vehicles, but take government fuel cell money. All these companies just want to trickle fuel cell money just in case, and take the government money. The fuel cell lobby is strong, why fight it, if you are a car company? Musk just gets huffy because he gets asked stupid questions like people will stop buying the S and buy the mirai. How many people will do that? 10? 30?

The false anti plug-in crap needs to be confronted, but I don't think anyone needs to be convinced that fcv won't sell soon. CARB's own report this year said less than 11,000 fcv in California at the end of 2018, and charging may be a problem with the infrastructure. The government of Japan is looking for 6000 fcv by the end of 2020. East coast of US is claiming more than california and Japan, and those numbers are about as reliable as a Lexus anti-plug-in advertisement.

 

I'm sorry but all I did was post the already examined problems with that misleading ad. You presented it as if Lexus had not intended to bash plug-ins. Just come clean, look at the comments on all the sites.

Yes the 1990s called and Lexus's attack adds will no longer work to kill plug-ins. Why pretend they are not trying to do this with the advertising?

 

Still, I wonder which ad agency it was, that concocted that wet dream advertising campaign - though I'm sure Toyota / Lexus played a part in its development. Funny thing to me, Toyota never lashed out when GM took pot shots at the Prius as being a geek-mobile. Toyota was confident enough to know it would stand on its own merits. Maybe they don't feel so confident about this latest project - hydrogen.
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Lexus and Toyota use Team One for advertising. They are part of Saatchi & Saatchi, a name you may have heard of before. Team One just opened an office in Dallas to service the moving Toyota head quarters, so they must assume TMC is happy with them.

IMHO Toyota should shop around, the prii advertisments have been awful nice person well. Saatchi does some good work, so it's probably a combination of Lexus's instructions and Team One's personnel.

 

Hydrogen cars have the same battery size as Prius or Camry hybrid. 1.3 kWh vs 24-85 kWh in BEVs.

 

And Hill's following line states FCEV have other expensive components to replace.

Yes, their battery is the size of a hybrids, so that will cost less than replacing a plugin's battery, but plugins do not have expensive hydrogen tanks that will need to be replaced, or a fuel cell stack that may also require replacement.

At this point in time, any claims about FCEVs having lower maintenance costs than a plugin because the large battery will need to be replaced is just FUD. Plugins haven't been out long enough to pin when and how much will a replacement traction pack will cost, and neither have FCEVs.

 

All of those are conjectures or even FUDs, especially for a Toyota.

Gas engine has a lot more maintenance items.

 

The comparison isn't being made with a gasoline ICE car, which would be fair to point about needing more maintenance, but with a BEV.

A battery used in the same manner as it is used in a hybrid should last the life of the car. As of now, it appears plugin batteries will also last the life of the car. So if a plugin needs a new battery within its life, then it is a fair assessment that a FCEV will too.

In the time frame that a plugin would need a new battery, a FCEV will need a new hydrogen tank(s). Not because of reliability or even maintenance, but because of DOT regulations. CNG tanks have an expiration date based on date of manufacturer. It is a preemptive safely rule. Even with regular inspections, the inside of the tank can't be checked, and some deterioration isn't visible to the naked eye. So tanks are taken out of service before age related wear can lead to an accident.

Hydrogen is chemically more aggressive than natural gas, and is under higher pressures in a FCEV tank; 3500psi vs. 10,000psi. If hydrogen tanks aren't subject to the same DOT regulations, it is because of political favoritism that may put people at risk.

Past fuel cells have had a usable lifespan of about 100k miles. The current generation should be better. One would hope, but the manufacturers haven't been forth coming on that information. So we are left with wait and see.

 

my tig welder's argon/helium (and scuba) tanks are much lower pressure, & they regularly have to be taken out of service to be tested for structural integrity;

DOT Hydrostatic Testing - Pressure Testing & Tank Hydro Testing in Los Angeles - Tyms

Haven't heard anything about testing 10,000 psi hydrogen tanks, but it makes sense they'll have to be checked before end of life, & that requires removing them from service ie taken out of the vehicle. I suppose it makes sense that kind of data wouldn't be in the PR brochure as well.
EDIT;
That reminds me ..... once compressed gas tanks are hydrostatic tested for the 1st time (@ 3, 5, 10yr cycles) - the tank is automatically 10% pressure downgraded. That would translate to a ~ 31 mile range decrease - in a compressed gas car, that gets 310 miles of range. Haven't heard how hydrostatic hydrogen tank tests will be handled on Toyota's vehicle, but .... time to do more digging.
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Tanks will last the life of the car, these are not like CNG tanks with a 10 year life.

 

These extra parts that need to be replaced, do you have timelines? Is it 10 years, or 20 years?

 

It sounds like that testing is for gas cylinders that are certified to be transported in a vehicle. It isn't the car's fuel tank.
This has the basic info on CNG vehicle tanks.
Alternative Fuels Data Center: CNG Fuel System and Cylinder Maintenance

Some CNG type IV tanks are good for 25 years; 10 years seems to be the shortest length now. Because of the chemical nature of hydrogen, and the higher pressure, it stands to reason a similar hydrogen vehicle tank will have a shorter life than a CNG one. Of course the lifespan can be increased be making the tank more robust for more cost and weight.

I have never come across lifespan estimate for a hydrogen tank. Does the life of the car one you have seen specify what exactly the life of the car is, because that could mean just 100k miles and less than 10 years. Car manufacturers don't view the life of the car through the same lens as someone that keeps a car until wheels fall off, or buys their cars used.

Do you have a timeline on when a Model S will need a new battery?
For the people that buy these cars new, and for the time they will likely keep them, these components shouldn't need to be replaced. The main point of bringing up the FCEV component replacement is because plugin battery replacement tends to be brought up as a negative for them in a discussion on lower maintenance costs.

Keep any car long enough, and something expensive will eventually need to be replaced. The unknowns of BEVs' batteries and FCEVs' tanks and fuel cell means they will likely have greater depreciation than ICE and hybrids of this era. There is a major difference between the BEV and FCEV though. The shortened range of a BEV with an old pack may still meet the owner's needs, and they can skip on a new battery. The hydrogen tanks will legally have to be taken out of service at a set time.

 

I believe toytoa is using type 4 tanks which are rated for 5000-15000 cycles. I would thaink filling once a day for 13 years would hit the bottom number. Toyota has safety waivers, but I am unsure of regulations. I am sure there will need to be periodic checks of the tanks at dealers (who else will have the equipment), but they should last a long time.

Maintence should be much higher than a gasoline vehicle like the prius. On fuel cell buses maintenance was 3x more expensive than on diesel. Still its included in the 3 year lease, so all the maintenance is paid for by toyota. I think fear of high maintenance costs after the warranty runs out would be there, but that should not affect the cars as these will be leased. I would think the fuel cell stack is the expensive part most likely to go bad. Still Toyota is playing with improving them, so if they replace some with newer designs, that may help their R&D, and would be part of R&D budget, not maintenance.

I don't think even toyota has a clue on what maintenance will cost them per vehicle, but with only 5700 planned through the end of 2017, its a rounding error in their costs.

 

In regards to CNG tank lifespans, the concern seems to be more about oxidation or other degradation that can't easily be found with regular inspection weakening the structural integrity over time. I guess dropping the tanks for hydrostatic testing was deemed too costly; it might leave a truck out of service for an unacceptable time period to a fleet.

 

Perhaps it's different with hydrogen, but I change out 2000 psi O2 bottles almost every night. Takes about 10 minutes. These bottles have hydro-static testing standards and come in metal and composite..which is a lot lighter.

 

I think, but do not know, that toyota is using a liner that is not subject to oxidation. vibration in the car over long periods of time may though weaken them, so they would not perform correctly in a collision. Still these are type 4 tanks.
Toyota Global Site | Technology File

That sounds quite rugged to me, and there isn't aluminum or steel to be attacked by the hydrogen. The middle carbon fiber layer is the expensive one, and the inner plastic liner should keep it safe, but of course carbon + hydrogen attack can produce methane in material, weakening it. Still should be a test to make sure the inner liner is intact long before the carbon fiber is compromised.
The Hydrogen Car Is Back... Again

I believe toytoa only recieved waivers on the electrical portion of the vehicle, and the hydrogen side complies with strict regulations.

 

The Mirai's tanks are composite, but still weigh in at around 100 pounds each, empty.

The end of service dates for CNG tanks is based on manufacturer date. So a ten year tank that sits in a warehouse for 9 years, will only be good on a truck for a year. The issue is with the materials over time, and not number of cycles under pressure. It is likely over conservative, because even at 3500psi, a CNG tank rupturing would be a bad thing on a busy road or at the fill station.

The latest type IV CNG tanks have a lifespan up to 25 years. I fully expect FCEV hydrogen tanks to be at least 10 years. But if issues that will realistically be of concern to the second or even third owner of a BEV are going to be hauled out, it is fair to haul out such ones for a FCEV.

That's what I thought, and that waiver had more to do with systems to protect emergency personal in the event of an accident.

 

BEVs are commercial, FCV are pre-commercial. I expect a mirai built today will not be on the road in 10 years, but lets say these tanks last 15 years. These are leases, and they will either improve or their won't be fueling infrastructure. If they improve, a few may keep them as originals and pay for new cheaper tanks, but the new fcv in 2025 will be much better, and most gen I's be recycled.

If they don't improve some of the 86 stations built by 2021, will be closing by the time these tanks wear. California won't even get to 100 stations, as they didn't last time. Most of the leases will simply be crushed and recycled as people won't want to pay for another lease, without refueling. There will be lots of rarely used tanks left to be sold to people that want a replacement. Let's not pile on another made up problem for fcv, they have enough real barriers.