Why Do Fuel-Cell Vehicles Make Electric-Car Advocates So Crazy?

huh? Pot? Kettle. Yes I said exactly that the claimed renewable electricity is from natural gas. That is not renewable! And no the plug-in lobby (don't even know what that is) didn't get these 12 states to pass the crazy law that if natural gas is used in a fuel cell is renewable. That is what I wrote. The guy that put in the fuel cells and the chargers is claiming renewable because, well Connecticut has redefined renewable to include - electricity made with a fuel cell because some day in the future who knows they may switch to renewable methane.

Connecticut is attempting to create a renewable mandate where natural gas is redefined as renewable if converted in a fuel cell instead of burned in a turbine where its fossil.

U.S. Deployment Programs - Fuel Cell Energy

New Jersey and New York also have this bizare definition according to that page. I don't know what the other 9 states are in the list.

Bloom’s Fuel Cells: Just How Green Is a Bloom Box? : Greentech Media

Fighting Climate Change | PG&E

Now if you include grid losses of 7% perhaps that becomes 479, or 62% of a bloom box. The highest should be LADPW, as they import the most coal, but I doubt many california customers are more than a bloom box.

I agree fuel cells are efficient, and they help you decouple from bad electricity providers like PG&E, SCE, LADPW, etc. But if they run on natural gas its fossil, not renewable. I would think you would agree that we shouldn't dumb down the definition of renewable to be efficient.

 

I agree that electricity generated from natural gas shouldn't be classified as renewable. No matter what technology was used. It is just another false advertising from electricity industry.

 

Aahhhh - progress. My head may not explode after all.
Now, if we could only get Toyota to stop the same kind of wacky advertising.
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You guys were spinning like hydrogen fuel cell industry was behind the false advertising.

Hydrogen has got nothing to do with this.

 

Umm. That may or may not be true. Why exactly would a state classify NG generated H2 as renewable?

I will agree completely this is a political maneuver and not a technical reality, but what are the politics for doing this? This question would need to be answered before convicting or exonerating the fuel cell industry.

 

They were just claiming the hydrogen groups can take advantage of it.

 

The thread title is why do fuel cells make electric car advocates so crazy.

I just was pointing out that these definitions

natural gas is renewable if it or hydrogen produced by it are run in a fuel cell. (conneticut law)
corporations are people.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/12/us/politics/12romney.html?_r=0
Donald Trump to Don Lemon: "Somebody's Doing the Raping"

These fake claims should be confronted, not allowed to stand because someone that advocates for them wants to pretend fighting the lies is crazy.

I just found out about the strange definition today, when reading about someone falsely claimed a quick charger powered by a fuel cell running fossil based fuel was renewable. If anyone is in Connecticut, and knows how this started, I'd like to know how to reverse the stupidity.

 

They are not but NG generated electricity is.

 

Including electricity made by a NG turbine?

 

Nope. Just the electricity generated by SOFC.

 

No the state of Connecticut defines, natural gas when used in a fuel cell (either reformed or directly) is renewable. If it is used in a turbine it is fossil.

burning natural gas or natural gas based hydrogen gives the fuel cell owner renewable energy credits, that are equivalent to solar credits in the scheme, and can then be sold to utilities with a RPS.

I have no problem if conneticut wants to build fuel cells instead of solar, my problem comes when they call the energy renewable, as it is clearly fossil in current use. natural gas power plants and fuel cells can both switch to renewable methane, but that is much more expensive to buy and transport to the fuel cell site.

 

Cool. I gather that NG turbines are going to be renamed "rotating element fuel cells" in Connecticut in the near future.

 

Per Bloom Energy:

• Carbon Sequestration: The electrochemical reaction occurring within Bloom Energy systems generates electricity, heat, some H2O, and pure CO2. Traditionally, the most costly aspect of carbon sequestration is separating the CO2 from the other effluents. The pure CO2 emission allows for easy and cost-effective carbon sequestration from the Bloom systems.

NG turbine emission is from combustion so CO2 is mixed with NOx and others, I would imagine.

 

The systems I was reading about did not use sequestration. Sequestration is cheaper on ccgt plants, per ton of carbon dioxide, but since there is no tax or credit it is not done. Bloom is comparing to traditional (not IGCC) coal plants which are more difficult to sequester. There are 2 pilot cc coal plant funded by doe going up now.

 

The Bloom system may some day sequester its own co2. It would be a shame if in stead they choose to spend that money advertising/bragging that bloom is cleaner than dirty electricity states. That's the same kind of credibility killer that new battery chemistry developers do .... promise the moon & deliver a meteor fragment. Is there no honest left?
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Not sure if that drives anyone crazy with its misleading message, but here are a couple of comments.
Lexus' Anti-EV Ad Lives On

Lexus Defends Anti-EV Ad - Says "Life With An EV" Has "Challenges" And "Uncertainties"


I can say that TMC did not cover themselves in glory here. I think the funniest one was Lexus thinks that people don't want to have apps for their cars, and that is a problem with plug-ins.

 

From a auto perspective, nat gas is an alternate fuel.

We had a big issue in Virginia law in 2001, when Prius and Insight hybrids first came out, there was a big question was a "hybrid" an alternate fuel vehicle and, if so, would it qualify for free HOV? They decided "yes" and the rest is history. CA copied the idea and free HOV is a key driver in sales both VA and CA, though VA dialed it back (due to hybrid-clogged HOV lanes).

 

First - it's not just about bev's, but equally about plugin non-truths. Just flood the nation with one or the other - which is considered to be more harmful &/or misleading ... monopoly money or nearly perfect counterfeit $50 bills .... and so it is with Toyota's counterfeit/half truth advertising. Don't get me wrong. It's easy enough to understand why Toyota has to use disingenuous ad tactics. It's because hydrogen cars don't outshine the plugin competition. Both sides compete for incentives that typically come from limited tax dollars. Since hydrogen cars & infrastructure are multiple times more expensive than plugins, it creates a serious hit to plugin growth, except to the extent that hydrogen cars have and need traction packs too. Speaking of disingenuous, Toyota/Lexus apologize for that smear campaign. Was that just to placate? Or do you think they realized they were being called out for their half truth, & quick apologies would let them move on easier - to the next anti plugin salvo.
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Yes it is. CNG and LNG seem to do quite well for large vehicles. CNG runs 60% of California busses.

My problem is calling it renewable. Natural gas vehicles can help with reducing air pollution in cities like LA and Houston. From a ghg perspective though a small car running cng like the civic ngv is going to put out more than the civic hybrid or prius. We have a lot of natural gas but it is not limitless, it is fossil. Don't dumb it down. Encourage the vehicles where appropriate or the fuel cells, but don't pretend that if you burn natural gas in a ngv or a fuel cell its renewable.

Again we can make methane and methanol renewable, and from them make gasoline or diesel or ethanol, but none of these things are renewable when fracked or pumped from the ground.

Yes that is another one of those crazy definitions. Hybrids like the Prius are gasoline vehicles they are not alternative fueled as they can't run on methanol or electric power from an outlet. I have no problem with states deciding to give efficient or advanced tech vehicles HOV access to encourage their use, but we should not dumb down the language.
Alternative Fuels Data Center: Alternative Fuels and Advanced Vehicles
National definition is the prius is advanced technology not alternative fueled but states set up their own language to put things in loopholes the lawyers wrote in the laws, instead of adding something simple but less annoying like HOV stickers for alternative fueled and hybrid vehicles.