QOTD: Why Hasn’t Anyone Out-Gas Mileaged The Prius?

The first motorised vehicle I purchased, in 1981, got 80 mpg and did the quarter mile in 13.5 seconds. Of course, it didn't carry much, and was utterly lacking in creature comforts, but it was cheap, fun, and fast. With a tank bag between my knees, and a sleeping bag as a passenger, I could still go camping.

 

Which one was that? I gave my ex250 to son, but it was good for 72-78 MPG in commute. 13.5 1/4mi was unrealistic.

I got roller-steamed a while back for marely suggesting M/C as greener alternative to Tesla. Apparently they are too degerous to even look at.

 

Why would they need that much capacity to keep the air somewhat cool during the time of a stop light? GM's start/stop already has a second lead acid battery to power the accessories while off.

With cell phones and texting, I rethought the scooter for commuting idea.

 

Large displacement bikes do not seem to me to be as efficient as the Gen 3 hatchback. Small displacement bikes may be, but suffer in acceleration and load capacity. BEV bikes would certainly compete with Tesla car for efficiency and overall low-carbon footprint.
BUT, as is also said about pilots, "There are bold motorcyclists and old motorcyclists, but no old, bold motorcyclists!" With no steel cage surrounded by crush space, motorcycles require a type of defensive driving style that not all folks can achieve, and the penalties for failure are quite severe. So I temper my personal enthusiasm for BEV bicycles or motorcycles with the knowledge that widespread adoption of those by the general public will result in more deaths and severe injuries. Tis a puzzlement.

 

A gen2 Prius was more efficient than the scooters capable of freeway speeds.

 

An air conditioning compressor is a far heavier load than any accessory. If its working hard, I'd expect it to be a heavier load than all lights and accessories put together.

I'm not sure that 2 regular car batteries could provide the sustained discharge rate needed to power the air conditioning and the Prius a/c has features that make it significantly more efficient than normal car air conditioning.

If you park or stop your Prius for significant time with the a/c on in hot sunny weather, you will notice the battery charge indicator dropping and before too long, the engine will restart to recharge the battery. The timing is not so short that its unreasonable but its suggestive that the traction battery size is about right for this task.

 

and what does it achieve for mpg's?

 

i had a 70's gas rabbit. couldn't keep it running back then, they must be magicians.

 

how long is electric a/c going to run on a 12v battery?

 

you're in canada.

 

Was it getting more than 64 MPG? Because Honda NC700X is rated at 64.

Btw small displacement EX250 was good for 5.1 sec 0 to 60, and top speed 100MPH

 

The real key is, not enough sales. The Prius does very well, even in today's market. But not well enough to go crazy for the market. Most automakers are nibbling around the edges now, playing the government's game.

In the end, of course other companies could build a more efficient car and sell more than the Prius. But they don't need to. Most don;t need to spend a gazillion dollars (nor could they afford to), to get involved heavily in hydrogen-powered vehicles.

When other companies do so, it won't look like a Prius. One of the advantages Hyundia/Kia have now, is that their cars don;t look like a Toyota. (They copied someone else).

Another reason is cost. Many people exaggerate the savings in fuel over the cost of the car. That fully explains why Corollas and similar cars sell so many more units. If Toyota brought back a Mazda 3 like hatch, it would probably hurt Prius sales.

 

I always attributed the mpg hit due to it's high mileage to begin with. Example: If you loose 21% of 50mpg due to both short trips and ultra cold - than your mileage drops into the 30's mpg. If you drive a 16mpg land barge, you 'only' drop down to 12 or 13mpg.
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That's very true to some extent. Some people here have previously said a FORD hybrid such as Fusion, which unlike Prius has a CARB and non-CARB version, the non-CARB version is better than a Prius for short trips. I don't know if it's true but that's my theory.

 

The Prius is a full hybrid though. It is going to be engine off for longer periods of time than an ICE with start/stop. GM's start/stop will only leave the engine off for 2 minutes at most. The starter battery is larger, but a 'sized right' one would likely have a shorter life with the more frequent starts. The auxiliary batter in the trunk is small; the size of one on a lawnmower of 155cca(only specs I've found so far). While I wouldn't bet on how often it occurs, the system might even turn of the engine with AC use prioritized. It likely monitors air temps and can decide if turning off the compressor will result in the cabin warming up.

ICE cars will eventually move to electric AC compressors even without start/stop; it's an efficiency draining load removed from the crankshaft. This post says the gen3 compressor runs at 650 watts once the cabin is cooled, How many volts does the GEN III AC Compressor run at? | PriusChat. A full, car sized auxiliary battery will be in the 900 to 1000 Whr range.

Well the 2014 Malibu with start/stop and a more efficient engine got the same EPA rating as the outgoing eAssist Malibu mild hybrid. The 1.6L Fusion gets 1mpg better with start/stop on the EPA. IIRC, so does the Kia equipped with it. Don't know if it has start/stop too, but the Mazda6 with regenerative braking and auto grill shutters gets 2mpg better.

But the argument is that start/stop doesn't show up well on the EPA test. The systems were available for years in Europe; years before hybrids. They weren't brought over because the extra cost doesn't justified them for the tiny window sticker and CAFE improvements. They now get a CAFE credit because they can improve a person's fuel economy. It is YMMV though. Do mostly highway driving, and the system just isn't going to do anything for you. I do know that manual start/stop can make a big difference on my commute.

I was looking at scooters, not motorcycles. Those capable of doing 70mph may of had a rating near 60mpg, but this was pre2008. The gen2 was still 60city/51hwy/55combined back then. Since I could come close to EPA on my current car back then, the Prius took regular gas, could be driven year round, and would be less worrying to drive with all the other commuters on the road. It just seemed a no brainer to get it as opposed to a scooter and keeping the other car.

 

Yamaha SR 400, its a cool old design, with mainly fuel injection the difference between this and the original 1970s vintage bike. 399 cc 1 cylinder engine (regulations change at 400 cc in japan) 66 mpg, 80 mph speed. Reintroduced to the US recently. I don't think anyone wants to ride a scooter on the highway, they aren't built for it.

Again the best mpg car in production is the XL1. Since it would require modification to sell in the US, so we don't have epa, but it likely would be more than twice the prius fuel economy. This is an expensive hand built car. cdA is 3.05 sq ft, around half the prius and tesla S (6.2 sq ft). The weight is down under 1800 lbs, do to using expensive materials like carbon fiber. The engine warms up fast because its a tiny 2 cylinder 0.8L diesel, which benefits from more energy per volume than gasoline. No problem building something more efficient than the prius, but the difficulty is to do it and get a profitable car. Toyota retains their first mover advantage, so simply building a copy would likely not be profitable, would you buy a chevy prius for the same price as one from toyota?

 

isn't profitability why Honda claimed to have axed their gen1 Insight? It wasn't too far behind the VW's xL1 ... 1,850ish Lbs, 0.25ish drag .... and iirc there was at least one owner who installed the now defunct engineer plugin pack bringing mpge well over 110 despite the added weight. I always admired the effort Honda put into it.
Under the old EPA, it would get 60 mpg. So more than likely - even under the newer epa test it would beat Prius mileage.
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The insight hybrid system moved to the civic hybrid for higher sales. The original insight still stands out as getting higher epa (53 in modern test methodology) than any other vehicle sold in america.
Compare Side-by-Side
But still people wanted the space and trade offs of the gen II prius, not the gen I inight.

I don't think you can do a good enough garage phev conversion as a manufacturer (although you can push the batteries harder and get more miles, since its not waranted like oem) The xl1 probably does twice as good or more than that inight. The drag is lower, but not the weight by much because the vw has to conform to modern safety standards and to include a 5.5 kwh battery. That allows the engine to just be on in efficient mode, the battery even after it is in charge sustain mode can handle a lot more regen braking, and all the low speed work, plus a buffer for the engine.

If you were to put it into production for mainly US and chinese sales, you probably would drop a prius or maybe a gen II volt engine in it, or something similar instead of a diesel. People would rather have the power versus the efficiency (mpg), and cost would be lower. Still I don't see this happening. The prius and tesla model S cdA (6.2 square ft) are low enough, you might drop it a little but people don't like the compromises to get to 3.05 of the XL1.

Son of XL1 is probably the A3 e-tron, which is a little disappointing. The A3 plug-in arrives in the US in october. The cd is 0.31 much more than the prius's 2.5. The phev model adds 750 lbs compared to the gasoline only version. Maybe next generation vw group will try to package their effient phev package into a lighter more aerodynamic car. bmw did the reasonable lightweigting in the i3, but didn't do anything to try to make charge sustaining efficiency high, as it is handiacapped to less than ev range from CARB's BEVx restrictions.

 

Ok, time for my story. As a pre-teen (60 years ago) I inherited a 1941 Servicyle from my older brother. It was somewhat limited in performance (2.6 HP 2-cycle engine, 35 mph top speed) but managed an estimated 150 MPG (my estimate as I drove it around on dirt roads in Michigan for a couple of years before needing to add gas, the company claimed 100 MPG). Note that it had a CVT (but manual, the later version ~1955 called a Simplex had an auto CVT) based on its v-belt drive and it survived poor maintenance by kids for the 10 years or so that it was in my family.

JeffD