Shocking : Tesla Model S gets 26.5 mpg

How do EVs Compare with Gas-Powered Vehicles? Better Every Year…. - The Equation

This is a break down state by state based on average energy costs in each state. Notice teh 95 MPG for CA

 

That's such a great (false) story that it just won't die. The video blog Fully Charged recently devoted an entire episode to promulgating it and Nissan asserted this claim in early LEAF marketing around 2010.

In reality, gasoline refining uses 5-7 kWh of energy, not electricity. About 4-5% of that energy is grid electricity so about 0.2-0.3 kWh of electricity is used to refine each gallon of gasoline.

The vast majority of the energy used in the refinery process is in the form of fossil fuels -- roughly equal amounts of natural gas and leftover unsaleable refinery "still gas" possibly along with steam, hydrogen, and a few other minor possibilities.

See table 3 on page 5:
https://greet.es.anl.gov/files/petroleum

My critique of that Fully Charged episode:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopi...wellyn#p368701

 

6 kWh of energy is enough to move a Model S 20 miles regardless of form. If it's mostly coming from Fossil fuels, then it's even worse than if it came from the grid where will come from a mix of fossil fuels and renewables.

 

And 46 MPG for NY Long Island!
With that rating, it makes no sense at all for me to consider an EV, since I'm getting a solid 50 MPG (calculated over 20,000 miles) in my Prius c.

 

The Model S needs electricity. Taking the various fuels used during the refinery process and turning them into electricity requires a conversion loss at a power plant of 50% or more. By the time that power is distributed you would be lucky to get 2.5 kWh at your home which is 7-8 miles at EPA on an S70D at 101 MPGe.

 

I remember reading a paper published in Scientific American that included the regional electric generation carbon cost to the plug-in Chevy Volt, the regular Prius hybrid, and fully electric Nissan Leaf - the take away was hydro-electric dams and EVs or plug in are a winning combo but a conventtional electric power plant and a Prius is also a winning combo.

WRT the Washington Dc area electricity carbon foot print - even if I get my main electricity from a wind turbine farm in OH and PA I cannot control the source of my distribution electricity from my local electric company (which uses 50% coal , 35% natural gas-diesel, 10% nuclear, and 5% wind turbine ) . When I had a wind turbine electricity consolidator selected -- for every 1.00 kwhr of clean electricity from a wind turbine farm in PA I was also charged for about 0.33 kwh dirty local electricity to pump the clean energy into my house -- so my electricity was never 100% clean (that is the max that I can get is about 3 kwhr of clean electricity for 1 kwhr of dirty electricity ) . Getting my local electrical utility to generate clean energy is blue sky . When my wind turbine electric consolidator Clean Current went belly up due to future contract mess up - I gave up So now I back to dirty electricity with a simpler solution - use less electricity ...my electrical company -Pepco - says I consistently used about 1/4 to 1/3 the electricity as my neighbors who have an equivalent size household - which sounds great but then it also says not many in my neighborhood is using less electricity ...On the premise to get people to use less electricity and to increase their revenues my local government -Montgomery County- taxes electricitry per kwhr so electricity is much more expensive to use electricity here than else where in this region - you think that people of Montgomery County would use less electricity because it cost more here??....naaaah. (9_9)

When the the sea levels rise several more meters due to Climate change - maybe there will be some new regional hydro electric dam opportunities? So if Washington DC still exist 200 years from now -- it will be likely be an underwater city ( like some kind of Aquaman cartoon!) or enclosed within a huge dike system. It is also projected that a good portion of the mid-Atlantic coast line will be gone too - underwater - so that suggest there will be less people (at least on land....or could that mean a Water world-like environment of boat people for the future of Washington dc?) so I guess there would be less demand for electricity regionally too. maybe after 200 years or so the solution will present itself. Of course - all this hypothetical - I'll be long gone by then.

 

...and besides, how much electricity could you buy...instead of a Tesla. Is this a discussion about on one's superiority based on energy use, energy source, geography, income...what? You buy the toys you can afford. No justification is needed.

 

ICE is only 25 to 30% efficient at best. Plus that article assumes all generation from non renewables specifically oil. Even if you use 100% natural gas, the amount of carbon per mile is double burning gasoline + distribution vs natural gas + distribution.

As the grid moves to renewables, EVs will become even more efficient.

That article fails to take other factors into account. Most EVs charge at night where they can use electricity that would otherwise have to be thrown out due to power plant minimum idling requirements just to stay online.

 

If the CO2 emissions from 6 years ago (which is what that map is based on) is your only qualifier, you are correct, it would make no sense.
If you consider the present CO2 intensity in your region, it might make sense.
If you consider local particulate pollution, it also may make sense.

If you need to replace your car, and consider future CO2 intensity, it may make a lot of sense.. As the grid gets cleaner and gas gets dirtier, any plugin automatically gets cleaner.

 

I call this bullshit and unfair comparison. They are calculating from the energy used from the very beginning of electricity production all the way to when the electricity reached to the Tesla. Yet compared to the gasoline used from the pump to the car. What about the energy used from extracting the oil off the ground, the transportation to the refinery, the energy used to refine the gasoline, the transportation from the refinery to the gas station, the energy used to build the gas station? If they want to truly and fairly calculate the MPG equivalent of a Tesla's Electricity production, transmission, energy loss, and the actual miles driving then they need to do the same for gasoline.

 

This post has increased my probability of buying a BMW i3 ER.

We have a 2003 Prius, my primary commuting vehicle, that also works on cross-country. But this claim against the Tesla reveals the desperation of the anti-crowd. Will they do the same about all EVs? Of course they will.

I accept the strengths and limitations of EVs, that is not my problem . . . I am an engineer who can 'turn a wrench' and am not afraid of applying knowledge and insights to solve the last 10%.

A diesel, ER would be a perfectly good solution but I can not let 'perfect' be the enemy of 'good enough.' Nor can I ignore what the Volt has become (a sad disappointment.)

Yes, I will wait for the 2016 Prius . . . it would be unfair to ignore the 2016 Prius. Let us see this mystery, this unknown, and let Toyota have a 'fair compete.' But this is a competion and no one has a lock. If Toyota chooses to pursue another buyer, GOOD LUCK!

They would obviously have too many customers with me.

Bob Wilson

 

I will always own a Prius. Current is 2nd gen. Next will be 4th gen after it's been out for a year or two.

 

This is all nonsense, we use what we must use, like it or not. Cost is irrelavent. Interesting for intellectual discussion but not particularly useful. Someday we will all have free energy, maybe. Then we can waste all rhe energy we want, or should we?

 

The real benefit is clean air. If we as auto consumers are doing our part then thats all that counts. Let the power producers, the Air Craft Industry the GROSS polluters clean thier act up. I applaud all EV and Hybrid owners, including natural gas and Diesel. As it is right now we are getting large amounts of polluted air from China. A better discussion would be how we can help Chine clean up thier air, for our sake.

 

you nailed it again andy! how do you manage to take something so complicated and distill it down to a few words of wisdom?

 

NO - what it means is, it makes no sense to NOT have PV solar, if at all possible. It's not possible for everyone, but it's possible for a whole lot more folks. Nothing feels better than having your system fully pay for itself after so many years, then after that -getting to drive down the road for no paid cost for your fuel.

right on my brother !! and here's a video of some folks that agree
Political Protest Or Just Blowing Smoke? Anti-Environmentalists Are Now 'Rolling Coal'
.

 

I will never give a manufacturer that level of control over me.
We were thrilled with our Prii, and at the time I thought it very likely that I wouldn't be driving a Toyota. I, however, never said never.

I drive the most efficient car that meets my needs. And I understand that tomorrow it may be made by a different company than makes the current choice.

If enough people give a company blind loyalty, innovation slows and all consumers suffer.

I want Toyota to compete for my business, and I hope they can make the vehicle that best fits my needs and wants in the future.

 

toyota is competing, and still meeting the needs of more car buyers than any other manufacturer.

 

My simple mind does it.

 

I still hope for them, that they didn't recently reach a turning point
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