QOTD: Why Hasn’t Anyone Out-Gas Mileaged The Prius?

I thought the answer was besides hardware, superior software/ logic control of the power blending.

It's so bad, some legislators think they may need to tax Prius extra. Va. and Ga. tried to tax Prii, ID just started taxing hybrids, WI and MI thinking about it. The answer is however, it is not fair to single out Prii/Hybrids for extra taxes. Any fair tax scheme should be technology neutral. If a state wants to tax all cars over 25 MPG, OK but that's contrary to national fuel efficiency goals.

Actually Prii have a pretty big MPG hit when cold, I think in part because everyone gets a CA certified Prius tuned to CA request. I think Gen4 may be way improved though. But that's further genius, not only do we get highest MPG, lowest emissions on a gaso vehicle.

Toyota accomplishment is under-rated.

 

Huh? The journalist must have had his beer goggles on!

I have owned a plethora of cars over the years - Porsche, Mercedes, Jaguar, Honda Civic, Chevy sedan, Chevy and Dodge vans, Ford Escape hybrid, VW bug convertible, etc - the Prius Plug In is our favorite. It is comfortable, roomy for the size, versatile, functional, practical, reliable, dependable, better looking than most cars on the road, and we get a consistent 70 mpg combined driving. No, we don't drive 80 on the freeway, but we do drive the posted 65. The Prius is not perfect, but is the best overall package on the road today.

 

Before the EPA did the 'Prius fix', the 2001-03 Prius was rated at:

• 52 MPG city
• 45 MPG hwy
• 48 MPG combined

Fortunately, I bought the car before the EPA fix and still get 52 MPG combined:

• 52 MPG city
• 52 MPG hwy @65 mph
• 52 MPG combined

The article goes on to say:

. . . how is it still possible that nobody has managed to equal the Toyota Prius in terms of fuel economy? How is it possible that nobody has beaten it? How has nobody entered this wildly profitable, popular segment and given the Prius a (slow, quiet) run for its money? Because the way it stands now, it doesn’t seem like General Motors should’ve devoted all that energy to making the Chevy Volt. Instead, they should’ve made a Chevy Prius.​

Over in the old Greenhybrid.com, someone once posted that GM had taken a Prius completely apart in 2005 to figure out how Toyota did it. I've looked at the Chevy Cruz and it has everything needed but the Toyota 'Prius pixie dust.'

Bob Wilson

 

Its actually pretty easy to beat the gen III prius in mpg and I expect the gen IV does just that.

The question is it worth it. How much more does it cost? We have the vw XL1 to show how to soundly beat the mpg figure.
2014 Volkswagen XL1 First Drive – Review – Car and Driver

I have no idea what the xl1 would do on the epa test, as there is no reason for vw to export this car to the US and go through the minor changes to make it street legal here. It would surely outpace the prius by a lot.

What are the big ones
A) much better aerodynamics - but this gives you less passenger and cargo room. Will people pay more for less room? Sure, but not many in this package. Prius is about as aerodynamic as a tesla model S, so can improve, but its near the top of practical.

b) Weight/rolling resistance. The XL1 uses exotic materials to drop weight down then because its low weight can use very skinny tires, combined this makes low rolling resistance and less mass to accelration. This is the most expensive part, but bmw with its i3 is pushing down prices of weight reduction.

c) big battery small efficient engine. The xl1 gets by with a tiny 2 cyclinder 0.8l 47hp turbo diesel with a big battery and 27 hp motor to fill in when the diesel doesn't have enough power.

Which means technically we know how to get much better efficiency than a prius, but people are unlikely to actually pay more for it. Others could copy the prius but why? Would more people buy a gm prius or a fiat prius or a toyota one? I doubt a prius copy would expand the market. Instead many are going for higher reduction in crude consumption with phevs and bevs.

 

I've asked this question before.
I've asked it every time some competitor to Toyota release's or advertises their latest "Hybrid that doesn't drive like a Hybrid" where they brag about performance while once again undercutting fuel efficiency.

It's long seemed to me that competitors just don't seem to get it. The Prius formula works.

Honda has taken aim, but made the cardinal mistake of not improving the efficiency of their Insight.
Ford has some interesting competition.

But IMO it is interesting that nobody has built a product that directly even attempts to duplicate or surpass The Prius formula of success, which I think is based on stellar gas mileage coupled with a vehicle that is real world utilizable.

I suspect it may have more to do with the dedication and complication it actually takes an automaker to build and market a hybrid. They still can make money easier and simpler by building ICE vehicles. I suspect they'll let Toyota have what they consider their "niche" market success with The Prius, and just try to lure and keep customers with primarily ICE offerings. I honestly don't think most automakers at this point are that interested in TRYING to match the Prius. It's far easier to try to build slightly more efficient ICE vehicles and slap a "Green Sounding" tag to the vehicle engine or name.

Years ago, someone where I worked on the weekend ran by our dumpster outside and threw out a huge collection of 1970's magazines.
I was paging through the ads and what struck me was that even during a period where we had gas shortages, many of the vehicles advertised were at best, flaunting similar MPG ceilings as vehicles today.

I think vehicles have improved in safety standards and overall build, but most ICE vehicles haven't really improved in efficiency much even in comparison to "fuel efficient" vehicle offerings of the 70's. I'm talking about the rather crappy American small car offerings of the time, and even the Toyota Tercels and Honda Civics.

So sadly I think my answer to "Why Hasn't Anyone Out Gas Mileaged The Prius?" Is that it's still not considered profitable to try, and we are still a fossil fuel based consumer automobile based society.

We still live in a consumer reality where the gas mileage of most vehicles vs. what they offer consumers is still acceptable to most people. As long as 25 mpg, and some ECO sounding tag on the bumper makes most consumers happy? That's what will get built in vast majority.

 

Also hybrid being a Toyota-forte, legislators more interested in pushing Plug-ins. Our incentives are not really eco-based, rather stimulation-of-US-jobs based.

 

This thing has 9 lives, wounded every time a Prius killer was introduced! Ford C-Max Hybrid officially gets 47 mpg across the board; Energi hits 85 mph in EV mode

 

Every time I'm sitting (silent) at a red light, surrounded by the idling, chugging dinosuars, it seems to me the answer's hiding-in-plain-sight: just use gas as-and-when it's needed.

 

i believe that honda and toyota have a silent agreement not to encroach on each others strengths. i think honda could one up them with their new system if they chose to build a prius size car, but they build an accord instead, which gets close with more size and weight.

 

vw 3 cly polo diesel gets well over 70mpg but you cant get it in the USA

 

must be a stinker.

 

and how many comfortable seating people you can cram in it?

 

depends how thin you slice them

 

...they also seem to be the only auto cos. with Toyota-style rules on CARB cars (must be bought registered and normally driven in CARB state...etc etc). We know the drill. Think Honda my drop the bought-in CARB state rule, giving purchase flexibility probably due to less availability.

 

The 1970's was before 2008. The cars made today would have a higher mpg rating under the old rules. As you said they do have better safety features, but they are also bigger, heavier, and faster than those cars from the past.

The others stress something else about their hybrid because the people that want the max mpg will most likely just a Prius, and most of the people buying a different hybrid do so because they don't like something about the Prius.

In an effort to keep the price low, Honda didn't use all their fuel efficiency tricks on the Insight 2, and then Toyota was willing to cut the price on the base gen2.

The ICE car is just easier to sell with a comparable hybrid being a thousand to three thousand more in price.

 

I think its due to the patents Toyota has on the hybrid synergy drive. In order to use it, they have to pay Toyota (which I believe kills them to do). The HSD is really ingenious in all its simplicity. It really is the best solution we have right now. Others can't beat it because they're trying different approaches that don't work as well. Can you say IMA???

 

Toyota Prius is the Swiss Army knife of hybrid cars. Review and test drive: 2015 Toyota Prius - NY Daily News

 

It has not been case for a while. Toyota lost lawsuit in US in 2011? to inventor who patented this system a decades prior to Toyota. So Ford bought the license and Toyota got access to patents though exchange agreement with Ford.

And Toyota's patents had expired at the end of 2013, so it is out for grabs. Yet to see but Hyundai likely uses HSD in oncoming hybrid.

I am guessing it is just not easy to design a thrifty car, and Ford is a good example of it. They have access to the same technology, and yet where they are at? Same thing happened to others, Nissan had agreement to use HSD but could not even come close to Prius.

To my knowledge the only company who outdid Toyota using HSD is Mazda, but hybrid Mazda3 are not available in US.

 

OK....I doubled checked it using a compass and a slide ruler and you are correct, The 1970's were before 2008. But I wasn't really arguing that.

And I did say...

By overall build, yes bigger and heavier. More safety features.

When I was a kid, my parents owned a Toyota Tercel for a period. It got by the standards of the day, very good gas mileage. But what I remember was how light it was. And how thin the metal on the body panels.

Long story short, but I accidentally ran into a friend of mine at a slow speed in the Tercel, and I honestly think he escaped injury because his Knee was so much stronger than the aluminum foil like metal of the car. He barely had a bruise, The Tercel...had a huge knee shaped injury forgving dent.

I can give the automotive industry credit for keeping pace with MPG's..while improving the build and safety features of vehicles. But even with adapting for changes in the EPA test, I can't give them much credit for vast improvement in fuel efficiency.