The Toyota Mirai (FCV) Thread

From the article;

PEM's are definitely used for extracting hydrogen, but I've never heard of a membrane designed to "hold" compressed hydrogen. You need a container capable of holding 10k psi of compressed hydrogen gas. How is a mere membrne supposed to do that ?
The article goes on to say that existing natural gas pipelines could be used to carry hydrogen to distant locations. Due to the nature of hydrogen embrittlement characteristics, I've never heard anyone suggest such a notion. Someone needs to do some explaining. Even so, I do like the idea of private enterprise moving these projects forward, rather than shouldering the expense on to taxpayers, as the hydrogen lobby is doing in California.
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While some in here are experiencing their very own "Bob Lutz Hybrid Moments" about hydrogen, here is an extra piece of red meat!

Jaguar CEO: “Customers Are Not Impressed With [Battery Technology] Currently”

 

Here is a rather extensive paper on the subject (I stuck with the executive summary):

Blending Hydrogen into Natural Gas Pipeline Networks: A Review of Key Issues
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy13osti/51995.pdf

5-20% hydrogen added to natural gas pipelines is felt to be safe without modification of the existing infrastructure or end user equipment. Of course energy per volume would be decreased by doing so as methane at usual end user line operating pressures is more energy dense than hydrogen alone or in combination.

Hill, to your point, the article noted:

"...metallic pipes in U.S. distribution systems are primarily made of low-strength steel, typically API 5L A, B, X42, and X46, and these are generally not susceptible to hydrogen-induced embrittlement under normal operating conditions. At the pressures and stress levels occurring in the natural gas distribution system, hydrogen- induced failures are not major integrity concerns for steel pipes."

 

The line from the article was lazy writing. The membrane is only involved in the electrolysis, and not storage.

Sounds like the plan is if there is no demand for transportation, the hydrogen will displace some of the natural gas in the network. At those pipeline pressures, and diluted with methane, the hydrogen doesn't pose a problem for the pipeline materials it it seems. This means the hydrogen that goes into the NG pipes can't be used for FCEVs, unless the station has the means of separating out and cleaning the hydrogen from the NG.

Some of the hydrogen can end up powering a NG power plant to make electricity to charge a plug in.

Ideally, the next step would be a stationary fuel cell to supply power back to the grid during times of low renewables or for peak use, but for Germany, displacing NG use may have a higher priority.

 

that looks like good combination. For off peak loads wind gets the biggest reduction and coal the least, as it is expensive to shut down and re-fire coal generators.

 

This is a good theory, but as you can see (tesla is in the notes) tesla outsold all Jaguar models combined both in june and ytd 2014 in the US, which means perhaps customers simply don't want a plug-in jaguar.
June 2015 YTD U.S. Vehicle Sales Rankings - Top 279 Best-Selling Vehicles In America - Every Vehicle Ranked - GOOD CAR BAD CAR

Unfortunately the rosiest projections from each automaker has all fcv combined selling less in 2015-2018 than tesla had in the Us, and china looks even worse for fcv. Japan and europe may be different.We need to look out to 2020 or further for any auto manufacturer to predict any volume in fcv.

There is a reason oil companies use stainless for new hydrogen pipes and not carbon steel as natural gas pipelines. If hydrogen is traveling as a small percentage with the methane then no problem, but pressurize the hydrogen and it attacks the carbon. Volumetrically hydrogen needs 3x more than methane (natural gas). This is not a techical problem, but you need to build more expensive new pipelines.

 

So what does that mean? Is it that just because hydrogen CAN flow through lower volume natural gas / non stainless lines, doesn't mean it will ever be benificial?
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It means that in order for this Siemens electrolyzer plant to be worthwhile, they needed to find another use for the hydrogen, because there won't be enough FCVs to make use of it all in the near future, at best.
Considering the issues with Russia, displacing natural gas could make sense for Germany, but Audi's plant making methane fro water and CO2 with excess wind power would probably be a better choice.

 

The bottom line is this. You can use existing natural gas pipelines to move a small amount of hydrogen, but this makes no sense for fuel cell vehicles in the long term. For those you need to consider the cost of new stainless steel pipelines or liquefying the hydrogen and moving it on a truck versus making the hydrogen where it is used. You might though if volumes are low as they are today, put the hydrogen in a pipeline then extract it at the station, cheaper than liquefying and trucking it. The excess hydrogen not extracted would be burned in other appliances using natural gas. IIRC NREL projected that this form of transporation will cost at least $2/kg if you need to extract the hydrogen.

But say you wanted to use excess wind at off peak times to create hydrogen and use that instead of methane. You could put small amounts of this hydrogen into the natural gas pipelines and have renewable hydrogen offset part of the natural gas demands. This might be done very efficiency at a new coal or natural gas power plant. Instead of running the plant at an inefficiently low range or shutting wind turbines, you could generate hydrogen, and either A) put it in the pipeline to offset some natural gas, or B) store it to burn later in the turbine. The heat from the powerplant can make the electrolysis more efficient. In the California regulatory scheme AB32, if a power plant safely put renewable hydrogen in the pipeline, it would directly offset its fossil use of equivalent fossil natural gas, which makes California not Texas (economically easier place) the place in US for the experiment. Putting hydrogen in the pipeline is cheaper and more efficient than upgrading it to methane and putting it in the pipeline. PG&E is a prime trader of renewable methane.

 

. . . . . SO it's another hydrogen-lobby "lookie-here" story such as, "we can make hydrogen from cow poo" .... or "plugin cars are for those who have 4 hours to waste" ... or "hydrogen is the most abundant element in the known universe" thing ... a partial fact, w/out telling the whole story. We can now ad, "you can use existing pipeline infrastructure to move hydrogen!" to the list of what's not being said. I read the executive summary above, and for a moment I thought I was missing something.
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I don't know if any of you follow Robert Llewellyn of Red Dwarf fame, but he does a little video blog of various test drives in EVs, FCVs etc and one recent video was about the island of Orkney in Scotland where they have gone over to renewable energy, providing 104% electricity.

The reason I link this is mainly to show what the oil industry have got to lose. The island's old power plant was oil fired, but is no longer used. They show an example of a typical islander who now has solar pv (yes it works in the north of Scotland) and an electric car. His heating has been transferred to electricity too and his monthly electricity bill is about £15 pm ($23), or £180/$280 a year. That's for lighting, washing, heating and running his car. Previously he filled his heating oil tank twice a year (roughtly £300/$470 each), £60/$93 for electric off the grid and unknown petrol costs but rought £50/$78 a tank full per month.

All this is beneficial for the environment and our bank balances, but you can see why the oil companies are worried.

 

Yep, I've seen his videos on Youtube.

 

Just checked out the install of the South Orange County H fuel station; coming along ! Off I-5 at Junipero Serra at a Union 76 / 7-11 location. The "Future" is coming !
;-)

 

reminds me of the early 20th century.

 

Back to the Future ? :-p

 

from one gas to another.

 

ya but hydrogen is more chill dude !

 

NHK World TV (English) Samurai Wheels
Episode: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles - Test Driving a Toyota Mirai
Broadcast (live internet video streaming) date: August 20, 2015
Broadcast (live internet video streaming) time: 11:30 am, 5:30 pm, 11:30 pm (Eastern Standard Time) UTC

SAMURAI WHEELS - TV - NHK WORLD - English

 

ZERO public hydrogen stations.in Oregon equals 150 mile range in order to get back to where you start. Come on Oregon, you folks need to start coughing up some serious tax dollars to help build a hundred - multi billion dollar infrastructure.

On a sad but collateral note, too bad the plug in Prius doesn't get as cool a commercial as their new favorite son - the natural gas - hydrogen car gets. I apologize for becoming the pariah of PriusChat. I know how Bob Wilson now feels when he went on his rear view camera crusade a few years back.

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