Prius Plug-in Hybrid Update

Quite the case of misdirection there.
First you say weighing kWh from the source is constant, and then you correctly note that does indeed change.
General ratios of population is far more constant than the grid makeup of the grid.

 

I'm pretty sure he meant that the rational approach of using a lifecycle analysis is a constant.

 

I was "thinking out loud". So, you were supposed to scratch "The only thing constant is by weighting by kWh from the source." part out.

I shall add, only those that can afford plugin vehicles and lives in a place they can charge, and willing to plug it in everyday and charge overnight then unplug it in the morning everyday That's my record use of "and" in a single sentence

 

If you add "or" you can add more than that...
or dont want to deal with the hassle of stopping at a gas station, or live at an apartment or condo complex with dedicated car chargers, or want to use local fuel rather than foreign fuel, or want to aid the local economy, or want to do more to help nationally security, or want more control over how their fuel is made, or want a better quality ride, or want a lower TCO, or want a better performing car, or want the newest tech, or want to stop contributing to making respiratory issue worse in urban and some suburban environments, or want a car that heats up more quickly in winter, or wants a car that can be prewarmed in a closed garage without risking your families health or one that has fewer moving parts to break...

While this is a fun game, I don't know that it gets us anywhere.

 

agreed. no one's listening anyway.

 

Not really, you are the one getting us into this "mess" because you bring up the issue of nationwide emissions every time an EV is placed next to the PiP or Mirai for comparison, to posit that supposedly EVs are dirty, which is ridiculous.

 

If quoting and citing EPA data is getting you into a "mess", maybe it is just messing with your misconceptions?
EPA data is rightly based on national average grid emissions, IMO this is the only criterion to use with respect to GHG emissions. Regional grids are tied together as far as I know (except maybe for some remote isolated areas). An electron not used in a 'green' area 'displaces' an electron elsewhere.
This is true IMO also to charging from grid tied personal PV systems.
Regarding 'dirty' as you mention it - I perceive 'dirty' as associated with pollution of dangerous pollutants and 'less green' as associated with GHG emissions.

 

Sometimes, but more likely not, at least in the US.

 

Yep - even as early as 3 years ago, 39% of plug-in vehicle owners charged from their own PV systems.

Survey: 39% of EV owners have solar PV
Modernly, the majority of plugin owners either own, or plan on owning pv so they can recharge. That means MANY plug-in drivers are driving COMPLETELY carbon free. Hydrogen? Not so much. And yet the FC industry continues to preach that plugin's are charging on a dirtier mix. The hydrogen lobby believes listeners to be real tools to buy into their spin
.

 

That is an awesome stat, but a better one would be to know what fraction of those owners bought PV because they own an EV.

 

someone tell California quick that their "green energy" is a big lie.

Maybe in small European countries what you say is true, but in the US it is absolutely not the case. I charge at work, my employer purchases and/or produces 100% renewable energy. That absolutely displaces dirty energy production elsewhere. We are literally building brand new renewable production capacity instead of dirty coal. That's the reality.

Maybe BEV bashers don't want to admit it, but that's how it is.

 

anyone purchasing renewable energy (at least around here) pays more per kWh, and is supporting the the production of new clean resources. it's a choice, and if you can afford it, a worthwhile one, which not only displaces dirty production, but sends a message to the powers that be as well.

 

I was just providing the numbers from the government site. If you have an issue with interpreting it, take it up with them. Don't shoot the messenger

How many of them actually charge when the sun is shinning?

I am one of the lucky one as I get home about 3:30pm and I can charge off my 7.8 kW PV system. It barely makes 3-4 kWh, enough to charge my PiP. I can't imagine how other plugins with bigger battery would be able to.

My first week data reveals that my home+car only used 26% of solar electricity directly. That means the other 74% would have to be pulled back from the grid (average emission).

That's a great point. If that's the case, PV system needs to be part of the plugin car cost, to reduce emission which the average electricity couldn't provide.

Your statement did not differentiate energy vs. emission. Energy (electrons) is fungible since a kWh is a kWh no matter from what source. However, emission is not fungible. 1 kWh from solar does not have the same emission as 1 kWh from coal plant.

By you purchasing renewable energy, you lower everyone's emission (slightly) -- everyone who are tied to the grid. That is the reality. You don't have a dedicated circuit supplying emission-free 100% renewable energy.

Based on above, I disagree that your EV is 100% cleaner because you purchased 100% renewable energy.

You can purchase renewable energy along with renewable emission. It's called SREC. SREC guarantees both energy and emission. If you don't have SREC, you are just buying the energy.

In the case employer producing renewable energy, I am sure your employer is NOT off-grid. As long as your company is grid-tied, you are getting the grid-mix unless you can show the renewable production fully covers (no draw from grid) during usage.

If plugin owners (with PV system) are charging at night, it is also sending a mixed message by forcing utility companies to use fossil fuel to meet their demand.

 

The utilities are not forced. In Colorado utilities stop buying wind at night because they prefer to use coal.

 

i thought nighttime electricity was free?

 

To whom ?

 

utilities.

 

well, let me help your imagination
whether a battery holds 3kWh's usable ... or 85kWh, it doesn't really matter. What matters is the length of your trips. In my case, it's about 38 miles round trip. Driving at 55mph at the fastest 1/3-freeway portion, and 45mph for the remaining 2/3 of the round trip - I get a range efficiency of 5miles per kWh. Charging at 240v, the recharge takes a tad above 8kWh total, at the wall for me. Getting home & recharging at 1:45pm, that means the recharge is done before 3:55pm.
.

 

Location is important.

California gets little electricity from coal and in California and nationally, electricity gets cleaner every year. Therefore, someone putting up solar is not matched by someone else using more coal.

It doesn't necessarily matter if one charges at night either. In California, for example, most excess home daytime solar displaces natural gas or even coal that would otherwise be generated at that time. At night, when charging, most (not all) of that electricity comes from natural gas or hydro or nuclear or grid renewables.

California electricity source mix:
Total Electricity System Power

 

"System averaging does not reflect rate based utility portfolios, dispatch dynamics and short-term market transactions. Surplus, or marginal generation, is what typically serves the spot market. Hydro and coal used to be the marginal resource through the mid-1990's, but load growth surpassed coal generation capacity. Generally, hydroelectric and natural gas-fired electricity generation are considered the marginal generation sources in the interconnected western electricity system. There may be some surplus coal available during off-peak periods, but California generators are usually at minimum load levels during these periods."