Prius Plug-in Hybrid Update

Looks like that is using 2009 grid averages.
I'm hoping we get more updates soon for average grid data.
Of course, those that buy or make their own renewable energy have to take average grid data with a pinch of salt.

 

I was too cheap to spend the $35 for a full read but other sources say by region and marginal use. Actually, the graphic says marginal use too

It has taken five years, but I'm glad to finally read studies that avoid the GIGO that comes from using grid average.

 

My pip does 55 to 60mpg consistently without plugging in. EV 13 miles. Yes. I couldn't convince myself to buy it new with all the incentives. So I bought it used and works great and fun!

 

The "supplemental Information" is free, that is where they list out their sources.
It is, however, the most up to date eGrid data.
It just sucks that data is 6 years out of date

I agree, it is nice to see some marginal data.

I'd love to see a study on total CO2 output of a household both before and after purchase of a plug in vehicle. I have seen a number of new EV owners that install solar panels, or buy renewables as a result of buying an EV. I just don't know how common that is.

 

Ah...nice catch. Thanks!
I doubt marginal use sources have changed much in the last 6 years. NG during the day, coal at night.

 

I try not to make assumptions, I have been surprised before.
Not sure about region wide, but nuclear makes up a fair percent of our base load for Xcel. Great river energy is probably all coal at night.

 

That has no effect on marginal emissions

 

i still don't understand why you insist on using national averages in every one of these discussions when literally no one in the country gets "national" electricity.

 

That's what fueleconomy.gov provides as well as more specific regional emission, from the entered zip code.

National average is useful to see how the whole fleet of EV would emit. Of course, driving habit, commute patter, sales figure, etc would affect this national average.

 

Talk about way off subject. Next we'll be talking about putting CO2 scrubbers on cows because of their high output!

Now if you want to talk about reducing emissions because it's the right thing to do, because we've got to be more responsible in trying to reduce our waste for the benefit of those that come after us, then that's a discussion that everyone should join in wether you believe in the myth or not.

Electricity is going to be produced no matter what cars we drive or what fuel they use. It's going to take a very long time to clean up our power plants. However, the combination of making our homes more efficient and transitioning to all electric vehicles will clean up the air we breathe significantly. Installing higher seer HVAC along with simply changing the lightbulbs should offset most of the electricity needed to charge a car.

Yes, it's a little more complicated then that but my point is that trying to figure out if there's more pollution coming from the electricity you're using or the gas your using is foolishness. How about energy independence? Figure that into the equation and you should plug-in every chance you get no matter how inconvenient it might be. Electricity is home grown but not enough crude is home grown. Access to more crude is limited so reducing the amount we're using is the more responsible coarse of action as long as it's done in a manner that doesn't force undo hardships on people. Ethanol is a shining example of irresponsible reduction that produces undo hardships on everyone who isn't wealthy.

Bottom line is that if you have a plug-in then you should plug in every chance you get if you're truly concerned about the environment. Technology advancements will eventually make this discussion go away. We will eventually see all vehicles move away from gas and diesel. The Prius and the plug-in Prius are leading the way towards that goal.

Back on subject
I'd like to see the plug-in update be, "Toyota announces that the plug-in is coming to all Prius models". Different models with different EV miles and MPG ratings. Then each person could buy the plug-in that best fits their driving miles.

 

The Fueleconomy.gov site does have one for plug in hybrids.
My Plug-in Hybrid Calculator

Which would be fine if plugin sales were evenly distributed across the country, but they aren't.

 

that's the fallacy of using 'average' grid mix, much less, over a half decade old - average grid mix data. The lion's share of plugin's aren't sold in Pittsburgh or Pennsylvania .... IE coal powered states. They're primarily sold in states with much higher ratios of wind, hydro & PV generated electricity. Often the coal slanted data skew is quoted for the specific purpose of making plugin's look as unappealing as the thing the antagonist is trying to promote.
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I agree, but I need to point out that Eastern Pa has a heavy percentage of nuclear *cough*TMI*cough*. Coal is still higher than I like, but lower than US average, and lower than the nuclear.

 

please don't take the misuse of data issue as an attack on any one state's source fuel - next time data abuse comes up - I'll use another state for example's sake

.

 

Not only that, but even if plugin sales were evenly distributed among the population, the population is not evenly distributed among the states.

A population weighted average, at the very least, should be used for a general overview of how low emissions really are..

 

Plug-in Prius' national average is also 220 g/mi, the same as Leaf but Volt has higher emission (250 g/mi).

So, 95 MPGe plugin hybrid emits the same as 114 MPGe BEV but 98 MPGe EREV pollutes more.

Confused? What a mess EPA got us into.

Those will and can change over time. The only thing constant is by weighting by kWh from the source. Even the source changes due to the multiple sources (coal, NG, etc) in the mix.

National average represents a emission snapshot of how electricity is produced. How, where, when and who use it additional criteria to "query" from.

 

EPA didn't fail. Their test usage didn't match yours. It didn't match mine for that matter. We all know the PiP can't complete the EPA test without the ICE coming on. If it could, then EPA would be more like 116 MPGe at 29 kWh/100 miles as reported.

The way I look at the EPA test, it attempts to simulate real world usage. It can only go so far as the tests need to be identical across all cars. EPA fuel economy is for comparisons only. Your usage may be different.

I don't knock the European fuel economy tests or the old EPA tests either. I actually dislike the 2008+ EPA tests as we lost direct comparisons to previous years' fuel economy.

Did EPA fail? If it did, I think it's due to poorly informing people that "your mileage may vary." I will never reach Bisco's high fuel economy level with his bi-annual gas station visits. My 70 combined MPGe is much better than the people who never plug in. Quite a range 50 mpg to 150 mpg on the same car.

 

I have been an MPGe critic from day #1. Lot of good it has done me.

We really need an CO2e per mile based on a somewhat realistic lifecycle analysis.

 

It completed the City cycle without ICE coming on. Why not release a MPGe rating for it? It would've been close to 140 MPGe. That'll open a lot of eyes to use EV for city and gas for highway.

The proposition for plugin hybrid would be a better sell.

 

While I am ranting against 'average grid emissions,' I present as evidence
Emission intensity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Natural gas (NG) varies from 577 to 890 grams CO2e
Coal varies from 863 - 1175 grams CO2e

So the EV owner who uses grid averages is off by up ~ 50% in either direction.
Ridiculous