Trying to Diagnose Problem(s) With Gen1

Discussion in 'Generation 1 Prius Discussion' started by VOR, Mar 12, 2015.

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  1. VOR

    VOR Junior Member

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    Hi Everyone,
    I've been lurking around the site for quite some time and now my car has forced me to come out of the shadows. Actually I was already intending to join the forums but my car is making me find the time to do so. :)

    Okay, so I'm going to start by saying I'm sorry for asking what has probably already been asked a thousand plus times before. However, I can't seem to find the info I need by searching the site.

    I have a 2001 Prius that has been giving me what my family and I have taken to calling the "Triangle of Doom" (top center display) and the "Helpful" Car with ! icon highlighted in red (lower/center console). Yes I'm being sarcastic about helpful icons. I'll describe more symptoms for anyone that wants them but I've been lurking here long enough to know that one of the first suggestions posters usually get is to get the codes.

    I have seen threads talking about using TechStream Lite with a USB cable and a Laptop (all my systems are 64bit seems like you need 32bit?) and that does seem the most reliable way to get the full info. However, I just don't have the money to keep sinking into a subscription. Plus even if I did have the money I don't like the idea of being held hostage by my diagnostic software (pay to play or I'm dead).

    That being the case, and a trip to the Toyota dealer being also scary (cost for scan/diagnosis, possibility of being up-sold, not to mention cost to have them do the repairs), I've been looking at going the BlueTooth OBD2 and Torque App route. However, I keep finding conflicting info on what this combination will actually get me in terms of info to help find/fix my problems. Additionally, I've found forum posts with broken links to Custom PIDs for Gen2-4 but I don't seem to see anything for Gen1.

    Questions:
    1. What will the BlueTooth/Torque combination actually get me in terms of info to help find/fix my problems with my Gen1 Prius?

    2. Are there lists/links to Custom PIDs that I can add to Torque for my Gen1 that will help me in my situation.

    3. I also found this post but it seems to have died:
    Announcing the PriusChat OBDII Phone App Project | PriusChat
    Did anything ever come out of this discussion?
     
    #1 VOR, Mar 12, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2015
  2. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I created a sourceforge project and put our Gen 1 vehicle PID database there. As far as writing an actual app, my call for collaborators didn't get much response at the time. I had an agreement from the developer of an Android app who was thinking of open-sourcing it, who then had second thoughts, and I had to move on to other things. It seems like later he had third thoughts and did open-source substantial parts of his app after all. I just haven't had time to get back to it.

    Meanwhile, you should be able to find the vehicle database there on the sourceforge project (obdchat), and there are a couple small 'exporter' programs there. They are able to read the database and generate (1) XGAUGE entries for a ScanGauge II, or (2) a CSV file for importing into Torque.

    There is a Gen 1 forum. Some years ago the admins decided to kill all the specific Gen 1 forums (technical, maintenance, mods, etc.), leaving only one survivor, "Generation 1 Prius discussion", which is actually a subforum of "Gen II Prius Main Forum", and you can find it by scrolling down the forums list until under "Gen II Prius Main Forum" you see a little link that says something like Generat... depending on the width of your browser window.

    Exactly why the admins did that (and have never entertained requests to un-do it) remains unclear. Best speculation is that somebody's Gen 1 Prius went rogue and attacked Danny on the street somewhere.

    -Chap
     
    #2 ChapmanF, Mar 12, 2015
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  3. royfrontenac

    royfrontenac Active Member

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    #3 royfrontenac, Mar 13, 2015
  4. VOR

    VOR Junior Member

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    Chap,
    Thanks for replying. I've seen several posts from you so it's nice to see that my post was worth your attention. :)

    I did actually visit this sourceforge site before posting but there don't seem to be any "Files" you can download. I can see some items under "Code" but I'm not sure how to get/download those (copy & paste?). Under code " / trunk / databases / Toyota /" I see "NHW11.xml" but no CSV, is this the database you are referring to that needs to be converted to a CSV? I'm also unsure what to do with them if I got them. A lot of what I've found on this so far seems to make lots of assumptions about "things that you should already know" about implementing custom PIDs in Torque. My knowledge of coding/programming is limited. Could you recommend any sites, links, forum posts that would help educate me?

    Also, can you address how helpful this combination "OBD2 + Torque" would be for troubleshooting my issues (should I repost this in the forum you referenced to get more/better input)?

    royfontenac,
    I can't see a response, just a quote of my intro. Am I missing something?
     
    #4 VOR, Mar 13, 2015
  5. royfrontenac

    royfrontenac Active Member

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    This is Roy from Canada and I will try to help you by telling you what I have done to solve problems on my three 2001 prius cars.

    1) Buy the pirate techstream software and cable system from the internet, mine was $35.
    2) Buy a used laptop computer with XP installed from your local area, mine was $80
    3) Install techstream, this site has posts that will help in the installation, just type mini vic in the search area.
    4) Connect the cable supplied with the minivic to the port in the car, the port is located at the bottom of the dash below the steering wheel, and then to a usb port on your computer.
    5) Run the techstream software and have it connect to your car, you will then have to tell the software the model of your car. Become familiar with the menus in the software, this forum will help with how to use techstream if you search the site.

    In techstream their is a program that is called "health check" you can use to check for codes that make the service light and triangle of death come on. It checks the 7 computers in your car for fault codes and lists them for for you. You can erase the codes to get rid of the triangle of death from this program (disconnecting the 12 volt battery for a few seconds will do the same).

    Once you have the codes you will need to understand what they mean. you can buy
    a service manual for your prius off the internet it costs around $60 or post the codes on this site and we will help you understand what they mean.

    Techstream will also allow you to examine your high voltage battery as well as many other functions in your car.

    Hope this information is what you are looking for:

    Roy
     
    #5 royfrontenac, Mar 13, 2015
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  6. Jeff F

    Jeff F Member

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    #6 Jeff F, Mar 13, 2015
  7. VOR

    VOR Junior Member

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    Roy,
    I don't feel it's right to use pirated software no matter how expensive or unreasonable the price. For my "day job" I do graphic design and use software that is scarey priced. So, I know the temptation to pirate but I've not done it. Especially, now that most of my graphics software is going subscription too (still don't have a subscription to that software either - using my "old" software as long as I can).
    That being said, I really do appreciate the details as to how to hook it up and get started. As the TechStream system is the "official" way to diagnose I'm guessing it offers definite advantages over the OBDII/APP combo (feel free to list some or anyone else to list pro's for OBDII/APP). It's Just right now I can't afford it and with only 1 Prius (so far) and this being my first one it's not justifiable... yet. However, I am hopeful that someday I might have the resources to go the TechStream route.

    Jeff,
    Thanks so much for the link. That helps a lot. Do you have any experience with TechStream vs. Torque? Also, what model OBDII are you using. In the Torque forums they say to get the best one you can afford so it can do more but I'm not seeing a whole lot of details on capabilities of the various OBDII devices.

    Chap,
    Thanks for directing me to the Gen 1 forum. I found the "Who should and should NOT buy a 2001-03 Prius" sticky post most illuminating. I had trolled through the site before buying our Gen 1 trying to get betting feel for what I could and couldn't do with it repair wise but I couldn't find that specific Gen 1 forum at the time so I made my purchase without all that very useful information. :(
    That being said we got our Gen 1 pretty cheap (for our area of the country at least) because the guy that owned it before was convinced the Traction Battery was going to die any day. We bought it last fall and so far the battery is still kicking but I'm sure it's going to go in the near future as the MPGs are slowing dropping. However, I'm pretty sure the current The "Triangle of Death/Doom" situation isn't related to the traction battery (engine is running rough on and off with causes the warnings to display).

    For anyone else "lurking" that is not familiar with the Gen 1 Prius please check out that sticky post:
    Who should and should NOT buy a 2001-03 Prius | PriusChat

    As you guys keep helping me I feel closer and close to a decision on what to buy for diagnostics. Keep up the good work for all us Newbies! :)

    Thanks,
    Vance
     
    #7 VOR, Mar 13, 2015
  8. VOR

    VOR Junior Member

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    UPDATE: Okay, so I found the link about using the "secret" Diagnostic Screen and it says everything is "OK".
    Sorry forum won't let me post links yet.
    The Triangle of Doom has been gone for a few days (not unusual since it's been coming and going). But the engine runs so rough (after the first few seconds) I'm afraid to drive it. Will any of these tools give me codes if even the car won't show them?

    Thanks Again,
    Vance
     
    #8 VOR, Mar 13, 2015
  9. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I know it feels like hidden treasure, but the diagnostic screen you can find on the MFD is only useful for diagnosing the MFD itself, the audio components and navigation, and the gateway ECU ... though it does provide a readout of the twelve-volt battery system voltage, which is handy for a quick voltage check. (It can also tell you whether the headlights and the parking brake are on, only because those are signals the MFD uses for stuff.)

    For all the other computers in the car, you either need a proper scantool, or to use the blinkenlight method where you short two pins at the diagnostic connector and count light blinks on the dash. Two of the computers of great interest, the hybrid-vehicle ECU and battery ECU, do not have the blinkenlight option and can only be read with a scantool. The steering ECU is actually wired for a blinkenlight option, but the wire dead-ends at the combination meter, no light.

    -Chap
     
    #9 ChapmanF, Mar 13, 2015
  10. VOR

    VOR Junior Member

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    Hi Chap,
    Yeah, I wasn't expecting much from this "secret" diagnostic either. But given my current situation I figured it was worth a look. Any Ideas on the really rough running motor but no error/warning lights? It seems really strange that an engine on a car this computerized could run that bad and throw no codes (at least not that set off the warning lights). Also, any input on which OBDII devices to use? I was looking at these but I'm not sure why one costs more than the other besides what the manufacturers claim (I'd like to get opinions from forum members):

    BAFX Products - Bluetooth OBD2 scan tool


    ScanTool 427201 OBDLink LX Bluetooth (or MX Version if Better?)


    Also, any known connection issues with any of these? I ran across a thread that talked about the first Gen prius using some of the CAN data pins for other functions and that confusing one or more of the cars computers.

    There's so many different versions and since money doesn't grown on trees I want to make sure I get the best/most bang for my buck.

    Thanks Again,
    Vance
     
    #10 VOR, Mar 13, 2015
  11. royfrontenac

    royfrontenac Active Member

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    Hi Roy from Canada here - I respect your decision to not use the pirate software, but for some of us it is the only way to keep our cars on the road economically. These older cars are going to the scrap yard because they are too expensive to get repaired at the dealer. Software is expensive to develop and maintain so it should be paid for by all users- however that being said most other car manufacturers codes can be read accurately by scanners sold for as little a few hundred dollars - you can not read toyota cars with a ready available scanner- even the best scanners will not give you the correct information. Toyota has decided to put you in a position where only they can help you understand your car, and at a very high cost, so it is unlikely you will keep the car because you do not understand its problems.
    Your car has 7 computers the next generation prius has 17 computers, the older cars had none and could be serviced easily, keeping them on the road economically will be a big problem in the future.

    Hope you keep the car as it will be a collectors item in the future.

    The gas engine of your car is fairly simple - change the plugs, clean the mass air flow device in the intake and it will probably run much smoother.

    Roy
     
    #11 royfrontenac, Mar 14, 2015
  12. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Well, in fairness to Toyota, I think many/most manufacturers have been part of that problem - here in the US, right-to-repair legislation has had a long history. There was some motion on it just recently.

    I think Toyota can be (partially) commended for having excellent service manuals that are accessible at a non-exorbitant price on techinfo.toyota.com (even if it may have taken legal pressure for them to set it up, and they've made the browse/download experience as bad as possible), and they have provided Techstream there too at a price that I don't think is right, but it isn't totally prohibitive for DIY either. Even if you spend $500 on the official Drew Technologies-branded dongle (once) and get'cher $55 two-day Techstream key whenever you need it, that's less dough than I routinely see PriusChat posters spend on parts they throw at problems to avoid diagnosing them.

    My biggest problem with Toyota's Techstream model is the time limited key. I got a CEL halfway home from Mom's a few weeks ago, pulled over, and read the code in a parking lot to decide how urgent it was. (Happily, it was a check engine light, so the code wasn't one I'd need Techstream to read.) That is not the time I want to be futzing with a techstream login to get a stupid key. I would be happy if I could just buy the software like I buy anything else, for a fair price.

    What I would really like to see happen is for Toyota to look at how popular the MiniVCI/pirate option is becoming, and realize that there is an active self-repair market that their current licensing model is not getting them into.

    -Chap
     
    #12 ChapmanF, Mar 14, 2015
    VOR and royfrontenac like this.
  13. VOR

    VOR Junior Member

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    Chap,
    I couldn't agree more! :)
    Especially since, as Roy pointed out, these cars are rare and getting older by the day. When I called our dealer, he said I'd be looking at over a week before he could even get me in because, rough quote "I need to schedule it with one of our Pruis tech that understand the first Gen Prius. We just don't see very many of the 1st Gens"

    Roy,
    I've already cleaned the MAF sensor and throttle body and that seemed to help for a while. However, lately a few seconds after startup in runs so rough it sound like the engine could die and there seems to be quite a bit of vibration. I mentioned to my father-in-law that when you open the oil fill cap it's pretty black in there (carbon buildup?). He suggested changing the PCV valve and I thought I might tackle the spark plugs at the same time?

    What do you guys think of my choices of Bluetooth OBDs? Don't worry I won't blame you if it turns out to not be quite what I need. Untimately, the decision and responsibility is mine. :)

    Also, will the Bluetooth/Torque even give me any codes since there aren't any warning lights?

    Thanks Again,
    Vance
     
    #13 VOR, Mar 14, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2015
  14. royfrontenac

    royfrontenac Active Member

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    Roy from Canada - I had a pcv valve stuck open on one prius - it did not seem to affect the idle of the engine - seemed the same before and after changing it. However a stuck closed pcv may be mot
     
    #14 royfrontenac, Mar 14, 2015
  15. VOR

    VOR Junior Member

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    sorry...my ignorance, "mot"?

    Thanks again,
    Vance
     
    #15 VOR, Mar 14, 2015
  16. royfrontenac

    royfrontenac Active Member

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    More trouble.
    The PCV valve is harder to get at then changing the plugs - do plugs first then pcv.
     
    #16 royfrontenac, Mar 14, 2015
  17. VOR

    VOR Junior Member

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    Thanks for the clarification. Does the heavy blacking around the oil fill hole mean anything to you?

    I don't really have any history for the car before I bought it. Plus I'm new to Prius so I'm not sure how "normal" this may or may not be. But in all the year of changing my own oil I don't remember seeing an oil fill hole that black. I could post a pic if that would help or anyone is just curious.
     
    #17 VOR, Mar 14, 2015
  18. royfrontenac

    royfrontenac Active Member

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    To do the pcv valve you will have to remove the windshield wipers and a cowling that is below the wipers makes it a tough job as compared to doing the plugs.
    If you think it is the pcv valve remove the rubber connection at the intake area and
     
    #18 royfrontenac, Mar 14, 2015
  19. VOR

    VOR Junior Member

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    Did your reply get cut off?

     
    #19 VOR, Mar 14, 2015
  20. royfrontenac

    royfrontenac Active Member

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    The black carbon may indicate the valve is stuck closed (not carrying the vapour away to the intake) unlikely that this is the source of your vibration. Change the plugs first and see what happens, it is a half hour job.
     
    #20 royfrontenac, Mar 14, 2015
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