The Toyota Mirai (FCV) Thread

Carbon fiber tanks will be lighter than steel ones, but they will still weigh 95kg(209lbs) to contain 5kg of hydrogen at 10k psi.
Then it is a Lexus, and Toyota seems to like going more is better for sound insulation on them.

 

The only interesting things about the PTO is that it is named after the mechanical coupling on farm tractors and first generation Land Rovers for powering tillers and other equipment which happens to maximize distance between the terms plug and fuel cell, ad it appears to be a Chademo outlet. Bob Wilson and others have been rigging up their own PTOs for years on hybrids and even standard cars. I believe it is even a factory option on the Japanese PPI.

The difference in in curb weights between the S and Mirai is mostly covered by the battery weight and fuel cell and tank weight. If the Mirai was a Toyota instead of a Lexus, it could be as light as the Volt, which is about 300lbs lighter than the Mirai and the ELR.

 

it should be lighter when filled with hydrogen.

 

Akio Toyoda introduces Toyota's "Mirai" Fuel Cell Sedan - YouTube

Did not know where to post this ........ here is some more!

Toyota Opens the Door and Invites the Industry to the Hydrogen Future
More than 5,600 fuel cell and related patents available for royalty free use

Patents include industry leading fuel cell technology used in new Toyota Mirai

January 05, 2015
2015 CES - TMS SVP Bob Carter's speech

LAS VEGAS, (Jan. 5, 2015) – Toyota is opening the door to the hydrogen future, making available thousands of hydrogen fuel cell patents royalty free. Announced today at the 2015 Consumer Electronics Show, this Toyota initiative will spur development and introduction of innovative fuel cell technologies around the world.

Toyota will invite royalty-free use of approximately 5,680 fuel cell related patents held globally, including critical technologies developed for the new Toyota Mirai. The list includes approximately 1,970 patents related to fuel cell stacks, 290 associated with high-pressure hydrogen tanks, 3,350 related to fuel cell system software control and 70 patents related to hydrogen production and supply.

“At Toyota, we believe that when good ideas are shared, great things can happen,” said Bob Carter, Senior Vice President of Automotive Operations at Toyota Motor Sales, USA Inc. “The first generation hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, launched between 2015 and 2020, will be critical, requiring a concerted effort and unconventional collaboration between automakers, government regulators, academia and energy providers. By eliminating traditional corporate boundaries, we can speed the development of new technologies and move into the future of mobility more quickly, effectively and economically.”

Toyota has a long history of opening its intellectual properties through collaboration, and was instrumental in facilitating the widespread adoption of hybrid vehicles by licensing related patents. Today’s announcement represents the first time that Toyota has made its patents available free of charge and reflects the company’s aggressive support for developing a hydrogen-based society.

This Toyota initiative builds on previous commitments, including substantial financial support for the development of a hydrogen fueling infrastructure in California and the northeastern United States. In May 2014, Toyota announced a $7.3 million loan to FirstElement Fuels to support the operations and maintenance of 19 hydrogen fueling stations across California. In November 2014, Toyota announced a collaboration with Air Liquide to develop and supply a phased network of 12 state-of-the-art hydrogen stations targeted for New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island.

The hydrogen fuel cell patents will be made available to automakers who will produce and sell fuel cell vehicles, as well as to fuel cell parts suppliers and energy companies who establish and operate fueling stations, through the initial market introduction period, anticipated to last until 2020. Companies working to develop and introduce fuel cell busses and industrial equipment, such as forklifts, are also covered. Requests from parts suppliers and companies looking to adapt fuel cell technology outside of the transportation sector will be evaluated on a case by case basis.

Today’s announcement covers only fuel cell-related patents wholly owned by Toyota. Patents related to fuel cell vehicles will be available for royalty-free licenses until the end of 2020. Patents for hydrogen production and supply will remain open for an unlimited duration. As part of licensing agreements, Toyota will request, but will not require, that other companies share their fuel cell-related patents with Toyota for similar royalty-free use.

Companies interested in Toyota’s fuel cell-related patents will negotiate individual contracts with Toyota. Additional details, including licensing terms and application process, are available upon request.

Media Contacts
Toyota Advanced Technology Communications
John Hanson (310) 468-4718
Jana Hartline (310) 468-7977
Cindy Knight (310) 468-2170


Media Website: Toyota USA Newsroom

Public Website: Toyota Mirai – The Turning Point

Categories
Advanced Technology Corporate Toyota Auto Shows Auto Shows/Events Auto Shows/Events Team Toyota
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ces consumer electronics show toyota fuel cell vehicle fcv mirai hydrogen

 

It looks like they are designing it to also be used as an electric power source: "...can power a house for a week"! The video shows some sort of multi-circuit receptacle.

 

Unless I'm missing something, there's a cornucopia of fantastic fuel-cell technology out there, just waiting to be implemented. All that remains is a way to make affordable hydrogen.

 

Anyone else get an e-mail from Toyota to explore fuel cells?

 

no, will they install a hydro generator at your house?

 

It's a good thing they didn't waste a stamp on me. When the GM fuel cell Equinox's were running around the area, the closest place to charge them was up at their training center in Sleepy Hollow.

 

I just got an email with a link to this page:
Toyota Mirai – The Turning Point

 

No. I got one about great deals on Tundra's.

 

clicked on the link, immediate bad thoughts, closed it. better now.

 

Are you trying to say it's a stomach turning point?

 

What's the life (in miles and years) of a fuel cell?
What's the life of the carbon fibre tanks? How do you know they're starting to fail? How much will they cost to repair/replace? I imagine they'll need inspection at preset intervals, but who will do this; the manufacturer?

There are a few unanswered questions with hydrogen. With a BEV you drive the car as normal and replace the batter if it fails. With a FCV there are lots of unknowns, many of them potentially expensive. As many of you have seen, in Europe LPG conversions are popular as the fuel is half the cost of petrol. But many people are put off converting their car as the additional costs of annual high pressure tank (and lines/pipe) inspections negate any savings in lower fuel costs. I wonder if the same will be true of hydrogen. It's not as simple as just filling up in 5 minutes. There appear many more 'hidden' complications.

And on the above. I can't see hydrogen being viable in the short term. The car is more expensive than petrol or electric. You then have to pay for the fuel (assuming a hydrogen station is nearby - what if it's 15 miles away for example?), then have items under massive pressure/stress such as the tanks, the fuel cell wears out and the HV battery is no different to a hybrid.

Why not just buy a petrol car, a hybrid or a BEV? Hydrogen (whilst clean emission wise) just adds additional complications to what is there already.

 

that's partly why the fuel is free for the first 3 years. because they don't want to scare you with the price and probably haven't even figured out how much to charge.

 

Questions that have been asked, but answers that are mostly not forthcoming.

The best I've seen for the fuel stack is 'life of the car'. Sounds good, but most manufacturers calculate car life to around 150k miles. It is a goodly amount of miles for the first buyer, but we all know of traditional cars, hybrids, and PHVs going past that mark without trouble. Then for those that do have a major issue, we have an idea of the cost to fix it. We also know that a degrading traction pack doesn't kill the hybrid or plug in on the side of the road. It reduces performance, whether fuel economy or EV range, but we don't know if the fuel cell just dies or degrades, and high quickly or slowly that is.

In the US, CNG systems require regular inspection, and the tanks expiration dates. Even ones that sat on the shelf can't legally be put into service pasted that date. Now the type IV tanks made of the same materials as the hydrogen tanks can have a shelf life up to 25 years. But CNG isn't potentially degrading to materials like hydrogen, and they are made for 3600psi, not 10k psi. The higher pressure has more bearing on a higher lifetime tanks cost.

I think lifetime of the vehicle is fair to say on this generation of FCV though. Not coming out with the details undermines the supporters positive claims. Which stacks with the unwillingness to charge the consumer directly for the hydrogen their car uses. The gas company doesn't have a problem is measuring the amount of gas I use. FCV and refueling station development has been ongoing for decades. So it is truly sad if not knowing how to measure the amount of hydrogen going from the pump to the car is one of the hurdles for FCVs.