Next Gen PHV --> AER vs. MPG?

I'm not interested in the 'erev' approach to *EV for the Prius, meaning enough AER *most* of the time. I like incremental fleet liquid fuel economy improvements. A 6 kWh usable battery store would probably result in 100 MPG fleet MPG, competitive cost (to conventional cars), and Prius type utility.

If I wanted an erev, I would shop for BMW i3 type designs, meaning 80 miles of electric range and an anemic ICE for the long highway trip. I would demand decent hybrid mode though, not the nasty limit CARB foisted on BMW.

 

With my hotrod led foot I was at 34kWh/100miles last month.

 

My PiP first year EV efficiency was 22kWh/100mi. That was with NY winter.

 

Again, not apples to apples. I also got 109mpg in my Prius. *shrug* If I cared about efficiency and hypermiling I'm sure I could do better but I don't. The PIP would be horribly inefficient the way I drive now. My post was meant to show the Volt number alluded to in the post above were accurate.

 

109 MPG in a full year?

If EPA rates PiP like how I utilize it, it should be something like 22kWh City (EV) / 53 MPG Highway (gas).

That's getting the most out of both fuels, as your commute permits.

Your commute is totally different than mine, so Volt better suits you. However, PiP does for me.

The difference is, EPA test protocol favors the Volt, allowing easier marketing.

 

Nah. That would get me killed or I'd kill myself. LOL

Damn you and your short commute.

 

PiP was designed to take full advantage of short commutes. Toyota should have properly adjusted/educated expectations better. They did not and it resulted lower in satisfaction survey.

Now, I have 8.5 miles one way but 20 mins drive.

Still much better than 45 miles commute I was doing with 2006 Prius. I will never go back to that commute. Life is too short.

 

Hi Justin,

That is an interesting comment, coming from you. A case of the car molding the driver, I take it ?

 

You mean the kind of car that gets a significant incremental improvement in battery capacity and EV drivability but doesn't tank the hybrid mpg?

I guess that rules out the 2015 Ford C-MAX which has a "nearly 6 kWh" 5.6 kWh usable battery, competitive cost to the average conventional car after tax credits, and has Prius type utility but gets worse gas-only highway mileage than a 2015 Volt (36 vs 40 MPG) and only 1 mpg higher for its combined MPG estimate?

Maybe you meant the 2016 Volt which will have over twice "6 kWh" usable capacity at around 13-14 kWh, will almost certainly be cheaper than the 2015 C-MAX after credits, has almost as much hatchback utility as the Prius or C-MAX, and will likely get 41-43 combined gas-only MPG?

By looking at Fuelly.com, we can see that the "fleet MPG" for the present Prius Plugin with a 2.6 kWh usable capacity is around 65 MPG. The Ford C-MAX Energi with the 5.6 kWh usable capacity is around 67 MPG. The present Volt with a 10-11 kWh usable capacity is around 95 fleet MPG. The VoltStats.net fleet average is 125 MPG. With increased gas-only MPG and an EPA rated EV range of around 50 miles the 2016 Volt should be even higher.

What's important is that the performance with the range extender be anemic but not too anemic and gas-only MPG be damned? Why not aim for better engine MPG and non-anemic engine performance?

The 2016 Volt will probably get about the same gas-only mpg as the Lexus CT200h which uses the Prius powertrain and does Prius-like 0-60 in 10 seconds but gets 42 mpg combined at an MSRP of $32,000. The 2016 Volt will probably do 0-60 in 7.5 seconds in spite of getting an EPA 42 mpg combined or so at an MSRP between $32,000 and $35,000 before the $7,500 federal credit.

Meanwhile, the BMW i3 is $45,000 before credits, gets 39 MPG combined, and has an anemic range extender.

It seems to me that a 2016 Volt is almost everything you always wanted but you are afraid to ask for it by name.

The spec details of the 2016 Volt are, of course, speculative today but we will soon know more in January with the official MPG numbers perhaps coming later in the spring.

 

Aye. Too much stress in my life right now so I just take it easy and drive. The cost is so cheap that my driving style doesn't change much at the bottom line. As long as I don't use the heater too much the range isn't affected too bad either.

 

You are right. 3 fits my mind set the best.

Wasn't there a time when toyota said every vehicle would be built with a plug in mind ?

Anyway, better regen breaking and other ways to more efficiently fill the battery would be awesome. I would Def want range to increase ev wise but keep the same battery size. Then eventually they may have a 50/50 prius...5 gallon fill up for 300 mIles range, 16 kwh battery for...100 miles ev

That's where I see the future is

 

I agree, although your EV calc is way too optimistic. 16 kWh nominal is about 10 kWh usable, or about 40 miles range.

 

I meant 16 kwh usable. And th or numbers are almost exactly the volt version. It would be cool for Toyota to.increase ev efficiency as well. Like when they did 44 Mpg vs 22 MPG cars

 

Still no where near 100 miles range. 60 sounds about right for non-aggressive drivers.
You cannot expect efficiency jumps from a motor that is already 95% efficient.

 

Don't forget about the diminishing returns issue. Going from 55mpg to 60mpg only saves $81/yr based on 15,000 miles annual driving and fuel at $3.60/ga.

If they can make it happen without cutting costs that lead to poor interior materials and/or poor ride quality then all is well but I think they should focus their attention on making the car nicer.

 

Would it surprise you to hear that a large fraction of people consider $1500 difference in car purchase price a big deal ?

 

Actually it would. Being a "car guy" I don't really take such differences into account. Negotiating prices I do but not the differences in MSRP.

A lot of people bought the CMAX over the Prius because it is a nicer car. If Toyota could match the Ford interior quality and maintain a mpg lead I think they will continue to be a leader.

 

Efficiency improvement in the inverter should give pretty big boost.

I would like to see 10% improvement in efficiency of both fuels.

Improvement in handling and a spare tire.

 

The final price is what matters. How much does $1500 influence your choices between two different models ? And more to the point, what about Joe Buyer ?