Diesel Auris beats hybrid Auris

What if I confuse the situation even more and suggest there may be diesel-like engines burning gasoline on a plug in electric hybrid in the future?

Then what category does that go in?

 

Yes...I know trucks are tuned by their owners to do that. I also know two other things:
1. Malfunctions, or even age (cylinder wear etc...) will cause the same thing. That's why I despise diesels so very much. I have to share the roads with them, and rural owners who are slothful in their maintenance procedures produce nearly the same clouds of smoke that kids in 4x4's do purposefully.
2. Show me a street-legal oil burner powered hybrid car that gets better than 300 MPG, and costs less than $100,000 and I'll post a sincere heartfelt apology to all offended oil-burner afficianados out there, and try to buy one.
(Spoiler Alert!!) The Vee Dubbaya XL-1 isn't street legal in the US. Probably not for Canada either. It also costs almost $150,000.00 with which you can buy a Prius, a Corvette, and enough gas to power them for years.
It has opulent seating for two, and the cargo capacity of my Harley. It's also about the only car that makes a Prius C-type feel sporty.

My information is presented.
Confidence in that information is up to the reader....

 

If you have kids rolling coal all over the place near you then I can totally understand why you don't like diesels, I wouldn't be very happy about that either.

No offense taken and hopefully vice versa as well.......discussion is always a good thing IMHO.

 

Diesel engine is efficient and it can lover oil consumption and CO2, no one can deny that. But for the diesel engine to be clean it needs a thorough after treatment, and to have such a complex system in every diesel hybrid or even plug-in hybrid is just to expensive for very little to no effect.

And this after treatment systems have their lifetime and in real life when DPF fails it won't be replaced by a new unit because of $$$ but it will be removed from the case and engine remapped. The car will pass MOT in UK, here is the story of why and how, I'm certain same is true for US:
MOT Test & DPF Removal | CRD Performance

And another note, diesel MPG and petrol MPG can not be compared 1:1 because of the energy content per volume (this also means oil used and CO2 emitted), for diesel MPG there should be MPGe that is 10% lover then real diesel MPG. This then puts some current diesel car numbers in not so good position.

And for god sake leave XL1 aside, those MPG numbers are derived from NEDC that doesn't count in electricity use and uses very unrealistic test cycle. I mean Volt/Ampera gets 1.2 l/100 km (196 MPG) under those same conditions, in that sense 300 MPG seems like not so good number for a 2 seater.

 

...none at all!
Happy Motoring.

 

I'm less interested in what category it would go in, than in the suggestion that such a thing exists, now or in the near future.

US-EPA scale, street legal, from hydrocarbon fuel without plugin boost. The practice of giving a single MPG number for mixed hydrocarbon-plugin energy sources is a farce, I need to see separate numbers for plug-in efficiency and hydrocarbon efficiency.

(Note that 300 MPG on the EPA scale is going to require something approaching 500 MPG-imperial on the NEDC scale.)

 

Highly illegal and will invalidate your insurance. Some are prepared to risk that I guess but they're the same idiots that run uninsured, drink and drive, drive without a licence etc. 99% of people will comply with the legislation on their vehicle.

And in the last 5 years I don't think I've seen a smokey diesel; not buses, trucks, old cars. I think the only one I have seen was a Polish coach attending some music festival, otherwise smokey diesels just don't exist any longer. They've either been killed off failing their annual MOT emission test years ago, cost too much to fix or just generally not cost effective to continue.

New rules for MOT to test for diesel particulate filter - Press releases - GOV.UK

Boris urges tax penalties for all diesel drivers - Telegraph

What goes on in other counties in Europe is anyones guess.

 

I don't know if it qualifies as efficient, but refineries regularly use a catalytic process to make longer chained molecules. It is regularly used for making gasoline. The cracking process isn't precise, and you end up with a fraction too small. So the refinery will reform them into compounds of the right size, either for gasoline, or they can something valuable on its own, like xylene and toluene.

So we can make diesel from lighter stuff. I believe Shell has a plant converting natural gas to diesel in Africa. But a typical crude already has a large portion of diesel in it. Diesel was cheap in the US before ULSD because there was a surplus of it. There isn't enough gasoline in a barrel to meet the need though. Which means we end up cracking larger stuff, including some of the diesel, to make it. Shifting some of the personal car population to diesel would likely mean less gasoline is made by spending energy to make it from other fractions.

In all fairness, the same happens with gasoline cars, and any bad smells one encounters in traffic are likely due to a failing cat on a gas car. It's just a lot easier to point out a dirty diesel.

PS: the Volvo V60 diesel PHV is selling like hotcakes.

It's called Homogeneous charge compression ignition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia , and is the hopeful payoff for all the direct injected gasoline engine R&D.

Plenty of owners of gasoline cars are doing the same with their emission control systems. There is more than one person on the Sonic forums that have installed straight pipes and bypass the catalytic convertor. Closing off the EGR port is also a simple mod in areas with less stringent testing. Knew a guy whose Ranger with knocked out cat was able to pass the emission testing in Pennsylvania.

Yes, the energy content is different, and you could use mpge(the e is for equivalent) for diesels, but what test method are we using. The EPA test underrates diesels by 5% to 10%, closer to 10%.

 

Well it doesn't underrate diesels on purpose, this underrate statement is from the people that don't do a lot of city driving and do a lot of miles (cold start penalty), and those are typical buyers of diesel cars, obviously. So fuelly data can show a bigger deviation from EPA, but saying that if all people would drive diesel cars the same deviation would happen is just wrong.

Grumpy, did you read the link I gave:

Having read some of the information available and published by The Department of Transport and VOSA it seems the MOT Tester is not allowed to tamper in any way with the DPF canister. Even if he suspects the DPF may have been removed from inside the canister he cannot remove it for inspection or for example drill into it, even if it appears to have been separated and welded back together.

Following a visual pass the vehicle will now have its tailpipe emissions tested for smoke content, this test is carried out using an opacity meter that monitors, using a light beam, how dense the smoke is. Vehicles manufactured before 2009 have to achieve a smoke level not exceeding 3.0m-1 (turbocharged) or 2.5m-1 if naturally aspirated. From sometime in 2009, when probably most vehicles have been manufactured with a DPF, smoke levels no higher than 1.5-m have to be achieved for an MOT pass.

If a vehicle were to fail its emissions MOT test it is often possible for CRD Performance to either change the ECU map for a cleaner map or to even temporarily reduce the engines fuelling using the in house developed Select-a-map diesel tuning box.
​

If the car does not visually smoke it doesn't mean that it emits no particles.

And then we have refinery question, the diesel to petrol ratio in refinery can not be skewed in one or another extreme, Europe is facing problems with diesel and jet fuel supply directly from European refineries because diesel to petrol consumption ratio in EU is at 7:3. Luckily US has different problem and they have excess diesel so EU can buy it directly from them.

A simple solution to a problem is:
- use diesel fuel for commercial transport (vans, trucks, trains, ships, air planes)
- use petrol fuel for light passenger vehicles.

There is just no place for diesel engine in a PHEV that gets >100 MPG, NONE.

And my curiosity, how many bigger trucks in US are diesel, does any one have percentage?

 

Same can be said of petrol cars.

According to Diesel Technology Forum, 95% of heavy-duty trucks in the U.S. are diesel-powered.

 

Thanks, wasn't aware of the technical name for it, but it looks very promising for increasing ICE efficiency (esp in constant load applications).

 

Correction, direct injected petrol cars

Good to know.

 

The underrating isn't from Fuelly's data, but the EPA's own research. The EPA also still using 55/45 city/highway split for the combined mpg when most people, and their own emission monitoring programs, report a split around 47/53.
Diesel mpg underrated on the window sticker | PriusChat

All ICEs emit particles, and none of the particles are good to breath in. Some port injected petrols can exceed the diesel PM maximum.

 

That is less than a 5% difference.

For example:
46 highway, 31 city car

47c/53h: 38.95
55c/45h: 37.75

More likely, there is self-selection going on of customers with an even higher highway load.

Incidentally, this is why the old data from the GM PR machine that 40 miles of EV range is 'ideal' was always such hogwash. People match a car to their use.

 

It isn't just the ratio from diesel drivers, but the average from all (diesel, gas, and hybrid) drivers, and was from research the EPA did for the 2008 test changes.

 

France says diesel cars a 'mistake,' announces phase-out plans

 

About time.

What about Slovenia?

I do like the idea of a €10k incentive for diesel owners trading in for a BEV. We need something like that here in the UK too. Similar to our Scrappage scheme in 2009 or the US Cash for Clunkers scheme.

 

The UK "green car" site, Green Cars | CO2 emissions UK 2014 | Next Green Car, ranks the Euro 6 version of the Peugeot 308 BlueHDI Active as having the lowest ("best") air quality score on their site (at least that I can find).

Just because a politician calls for a certain action doesn't necessarily mean it's the best thing to do.

 

I've mentioned about the Peugeot 308 Euro 6 before. I gets about 91 mpg UK compared to the Prius 72 mpg on the Euro cycle.

I do wonder if Euro 6 diesels will be clean enough and the problem lies with the older cars. It is said that the older cars barely complied with the emissions legislation in real life; hence the problems we're having over here.

Emission tests 'substantially underestimate' pollution pumped out by diesels - Telegraph

And this is before people remove the emission equipment as reported by other members.

All in all I think diesel should be traded in for a new car and preferably a BEV if at all possible. Perhaps the €10k allowance would apply to plug ins too? That way everyone is happy. The old smokers (literally) are off the road.

 

If I am reading correctly, that car costs about 15% more than a Yaris Hybrid and has about 10% higher CO2/km emissions.

So I would say ~ same category of cars ... until NOx is noticed at ~ 100 mg/mile. That is 10x (one thousand percent) higher emissions. Diesel is losing the fuel war in urban Europe due to NOx, even with urea treatment.