Another Battery Degradation Thread

Wow, at $.10/kWh, it would seem to really skew the TCO unfavorably unless you are consuming a LOT of electricity. Where the rates are double, triple, or more than that it certainly pencils out. Have you done the math and would you be willing to share your conclusion you'd recover costs within, say, 10 years?

 

dhanson did not say 10 years; if fact he quite correctly pointed out that the calc depends on the presumed lifetime of the array.

If you demand a 10 year payback you are leaving easy money on the table. Look at my post #240 for a simple to use calculation.

 

It may work fine, but since it's not an application for which it was designed, I won't be trying it.

 

I almost replied to this post yesterday with a lot of offtopic ranting, I'm glad now that I didn't post that.
What happened to me today was that for the second time in 2 weeks I've found new stock gauges.
I just got one of the bluetooth adapters today, ( version 1.5 ) but have only unwrapped it so far. I expect to have the other bluetooth in a day or two, ( version 2.1 ) and I'm still debating the mini wifi, but I just ordered two dash cradles and I'm hoping the wife lets me borrow here nexus for a few test runs because my crackberry is an old handmedown with a tiny screen and camera.
If I can't borrow I'll have to shell out some more cash for a phone with a larger screen, but with two hybrids I think the initial outlay will be worth the dent in my savings if I have to go that route. sorry for thinking out loud here, it helps review my own thoughts after re-reading.
Regarding the mostly off topic material I almost posted yesterday, I'm well aware of the detractors of hybrids and many other new technologies. As I've posted here a few other times, I've been interested in the fuel cell technology in cars for about a decade now and am still waiting on an opportunity to even just see one up close, and have followed the many iterations of how they might be presented / marketed to the automobile buying public.
I'm doing my best to learn what I can with what is available and I can find regarding these new technologies and as you mentioned above it is not an easy thing to do with so much conflicting data available and so many opinions regarding every one of them..
Again, thanks for your help and ( imo ) your nicely formatted and informative videos and for sharing them here.

 

The nonsense of the past is over. Most of that is due to having such thorough data available now. With so many owners sharing their real-world experiences, the hype is just a bad memory. There were groups who would generate quite a bit of hope based on vague statements. When those of us trying to keep discussions constructive asked for support evidence, we got labeled as trolls and down-voted. They were actually the troublemakers. We even had to deal with well-proven facts getting dismissed... until it was discovered how effective videos could be. Words alone weren't enough. That's become very clear on the various forums & blogs. It is now quite easy to squash a false claim by simply posting a link to a video.

Evidence of the change in focus became easy to see the start of this year. The shift of attention over to sales is the hot topic of discussion now. It's not exactly constructive in all venues though, as this quote from yesterday tells us: "If even the PiP is now outselling the Volt with its pathetic range and performance, I think that leaves zero doubt that there'd be a market for a cheaper 25 mile Volt option in 2016." That's still a bit on the insulting side, but at least it's progress. The posts which followed that topic-opening statement were a mix of helpful and misguided. That particular audience still doesn't want to acknowledge the reality that Prius PHV sales remain limited to just 15 states, that some Volt sales are the result of old leases being replaced by new leases, and that tax-credits will expire during the life-cycle of next-gen offering.

Nonetheless, the true measure of progress is finally being recognized as important. We've moved from engineering bragging-rights to what discussion that includes being practical & affordable. They say third time is the charm, but to have to endure both Two-Mode and Voltec failing to draw sales prior to that was a massive waste of resources. All the time & money that was lost due to focus on want rather than need...

Anywho, being able to sum all that up and declare closure on those chapters in history is great. The more-AER and anti-blending chants have lost their audience. The market has moved on. Remember how it was based upon the "range anxiety" campaign, which proved to be a non-issue. Sales of Leaf became undeniable evidence that having an engine available was not essential. Offerings will be a wide array of configurations, even the increasing talk of a "lite" version for Volt support that. We welcome the change, especially due to it having been so painful to reach this point.

 

now all we need is $13.00/gal gas.

 

It draws you in. There's much to observe when you have those gauges available.

Once I finally figured out how to share so much detail, I scrambled to actually capture it. The warm days of summer are rapidly vanishing. In fact, that "heat push" video might have been my very last opportunity this year. Daily temps are no where near as high as last year and fall is quickly approaching.

I'm really looking forward to the cooler weather. It will bring along an entirely new set of data. No one has ever captured the winter detail that way. I can boldly go here in Minnesota...

 

It sounds absurd, yes, but in comparison to other energy sources, gasoline is cheap.

This might be calculated many ways, but the energy we use per hour, to drive to get a coffee in the next city is roughly equivalent to running 90 hair-dryers.

 

I was assuming I buy the system with cash no interest involved, factoring in my expected power generation based on location/orientation (I don't have an ideal south facing roof) then I divided total cost of installing the array by the kwh rate and my current annual consumption.

I left the rebates and buyback out to make the math simpler since rebates just offset install cost (I'll use Net cost in the math) and buyback depends on my power generation vs usage balance (if I buy more LED bulbs and change my roof to EPA shingles, add radiant barrier in attic, etcetera I will reduce my usage but if I buy a Leaf or Tesla I will increase my usage). I left usage changes as a wash for simplicity.

It really all comes down to total cost of install (panels, labor, everything) if it is cheap enough per KW I go big and try to get a 10KW or close to that limit. If the cost is higher I go smaller or don't do it at all. I'll do better math later when I have better numbers to work with.

 

Depends on the total net cost of installing the array. I haven't had any solid quotes done by a local company. My back of the envelope style calculations put the payback between 7 and 25 years depending on the net cost of the install and how much surplus power I sell to TVA.

At 25 years I wouldn't bother, at 7 years I'd max the array as close as I can get to 10KW. Depending on the math if the results were between those I'd have some thinking to do.

 

I was curious about your mention of only the surplus energy receiving utility credit. Not knowing where you live in TN I looked at the utility that serves Nashville and found (I think) that the utility production credit to the PV owner is based on total generation, not the surplus.

This may not be your utility, or I may have misunderstood.

 

Knoxville, TN and the PV buyback is not guaranteed.

KUB is the local utility, TVA is the regional utility. They have a regional limit on people/installations that can join the buyback program. If you get accepted for that year you get a contract that lasts for 10 years agreeing to buy your surplus power at retail plus x cents / kwh. The plus x cents is based on the calender year you joined the program. In a few years x will be 0, I'm not sure right now what the 2015 number is.

See TVA is killing the solar industry with 3 easy steps | for an installers rant on the state of PV in TN.

Wikipedia says "Federal law requires net metering upon request, but Tennessee is one of only four states without established policy, meaning that it needs to be negotiated with the utility."

Tennessee TVA - Green Power Providers says they are down to $.04 per kwh for X in 2014. No mention of what it would be in 2015.

If I had two meters and got the 4 cents per kwh on energy I generated and consumed not just surplus I sold that would shorten the payoff considerably as though my value per kwh were 0.14 instead of 0.10. That would eat away almost a third of the payback time.

If I'd had the money to do this a few years ago when it was retail plus 12 cents per kwh it would have been a no brainer but I wans't in a position to do it back then.

 

I skimmed through the agreement. Seems to me that for approved installations in 2014

1. Premium credit (retail + 4 cents) per kWh for 10 years
2. Retail credit for next 10 years

Since the installation will likely last considerably longer than 20 years, the utility is making a strong case for you NOT to oversize your installation.

 

The benefits of high efficiency and practicality came through all those AER and anti-blending chants.

Some are still struggling to understand the difference between gas consumption and fuel economy.

I have not noticed any sign of degradation. I am doing higher EV ratio from the new house.

With 500 miles in, my gas consumption is 196 MPG.

Fuel economy for EV is 146 MPGe. FE for gas is 64 MPG. Combined of 103 MPGe. Sweet!

As for practicality, this thread tells it all.

 

You can thank Christie for your amazing results

 

My EV miles are ready for another Bridgegate

 

I thought you meant the EV battery display when I first read your post. Then after watching the video again, because I wanted to guestimate what John would answer, I realized which gauge you were referencing.

Also, does it matter which driving mode, ie: hv, eco, power, hv-eco, normal ?
Is there an hv-power mode combination available?
I'll have to check on my next trip.

I've noticed a few things the last couple of days on the stock gauges that might be relevant to some of the data in the video. About how the "EV miles gauge" continues to drop when MG1 and 2 are no longer pulling any charge (N) from the pack. And how much the EV gauge drops seems to be dependent on how deep into the EV bar one takes discharge from the pack and for how long that higher discharge rate is being called for.

Much like the drop in SOC from 31 or 32% right down to 23% as soon as the ICE switched on in the video.
But since I've never really watched what happens to the pack when the ICE has switched on, it caught my eye.

The last week or so I've been running hv-eco instead of plain ole hv and have been keeping my eye on the EV bar like a hawk hoping I can see 18 or 19 or maybe even 20 miles EV again before the summer is over.
I got 17.5 the other day, but that is a long way from 19. a long long way.

I'd be really interested in how many times retired has gotten 19 ev miles too and if he was driving specifically to acquire a high ev range or if it just happened out of the blue, like it did for me.

I see more and more why so many people are against coasting in N and using B as I learn more about the gauges and the different techniques one can use to keep the pack charged up as well as how to take charge from the pack as shown by the EV bar.

 

At times, it was close to max... like the acceleration onto the highway. Cruising at a steady speed on the highway isn't as much of a draw.

 

This newest video is a compare with the previous, easy observation of battery temp differences...

Unlike the "heat push" video, when I did everything I could to stress limits through ordinary circumstances, this was a demonstration of what an owner is more likely to actually do.

Avoiding direct sun is the most obvious means of protecting the battery-pack for longevity. Since rain was in forecast for later that day, the cloudy conditions would ensure the interior of the vehicle didn't get too warm. Another technique is giving the battery-pack time to rest both before & after recharging, which I did. That gives it a chance to cool in the meantime.

The humidity level had climbed nearly 100% by the time I was ready to leave work. That moist air was uncomfortable. A/C use was the sensible choice for interior cooling, for both myself and the battery-pack. My plan was to drive that same route under similar EV conditions as the "heat push", but at a cooler temperature for summer had worked out. (Sometimes, you get lucky!) A few drops of rain had just begun to fall. The edge of the approaching storm made for a rather scenic situation to film, while also serving as a comparison video.
The drive itself was indeed quite ordinary. Having started out with both a lower air-intake temperature and all 3 battery-banks on the cool side, the data expectation was it would be quite a contrast.

Sure enough, that drive home was what I had hoped… other than I forgot to reset the display statistics before drive. So, you get to see my overall results for the work commute, morning & afternoon drives combined. Looking at the temperatures, the effectiveness of the air-cooling system is clear. It works well.

Also, to my delight, that same route driving with the windows half open was barely any more efficient overall than just running the A/C instead. I now have data showing the penalty for being comfortable is negligible. It's nice to see results so revealing.

Using the electricity for cooling and the engine for assisting delivers a clean & efficient drive. Gotta like that.