Ford New Hybrid Line

I'm sure they can do it too. I did snicker a little because, they had already marketed a Prius fighter or two. Those pesky EPA ratings...

Aside from snakiness, Ford can definitely build a Prius beater. Toyota's problem will be that the Ford will probably be way more fun to drive, and will have handling characteritics probably more in line with a Cmax than a Prius. If they do it right, slow-moving Toyota will have to change a bit.

Perhaps Toyota is working on a sedan that is designed as a hybrid from the ground up.

Competition is good.

 

Bob,
I presume you are mocking Ford. At least I hope so, since while I am willing to take seriously what a reliable company like Toyota says is coming in ~ a year, forward looking statements approaching the next decade from any company, let alone Ford, is a slow day indeed for the rumor mill.

 

What happens if Ford goes all in on hybrid gas/electrics, and plug ins, while Toyota goes all in on hydrogen power, and makes the next gen Prius more efficient, while still looking much the same? At this point, I think it's far easier to see what both company's direction is than it once was.

 

What happens if Ford gets caught cheating on EPA again, and in a repeat cycle of getting caught with their pants down from relying on gas guzzlers find that banks and the government refuse to bail them out ?

If you want to shop for a crystal ball, I recommend the brand that takes history into account. It does tend to repeat.

 

I thought Ford C-Max was dedicated hybrid as Honda Insight to take on Prius.
So, Insight 1.0 & 2.0, C-Max 1.0 did not make it. Will I believe the next mpg claim?
There were criticisms for not using Li-on in the regular Prius, did not help Sonata, C-Max or Insight. Now Aluminum? Compare Side-by-Side

 

If history repeats, Toyota will be written about poorly. If Ford cheats again? The media will report how bad the spa tests are.

 

Ford may go Aluminum because:
C-Max Base Curb Weight (lbs.) 3607
C-Max Energi Curb Weight (lbs.) 3859

Prius - 3042
Prius PIP - 3165

 

The c-max is an existing european market vehicle. Ford didn't have the money to develop a hybrid from the ground up, so simplay decided to not sell the gas only version in the US.

A dedicated US market hybrid would likely have been longer and more streamlined to reduce drag. If it was designed from scratch on the C2 platform as rumored, it would also drop a good chunk of weight.

Will you personally believe the mpg claim, I doubt it ;-) If ford built a carbon copy of the prius, the prius would still sell much better. No one really buys the copy unless its much cheaper. Therefore ford needs to build something better than the prius to sell as well head to head. That might force toyota to build prii in the US to reduce costs, but I doubt anyone can build a prius killer.

Where a dedicated hybrid/phev may help ford is to sell on the plug-in side.

 

as long as companies feel they have to mention prius in their marketing? i know what i'll be driving,

 

I wonder if Ford is going to utilize some of Tesla's patents in this new hybrid, since the patents were made publically available not too long ago. And since Ford's "prius-killer" won't be out for at least four years, that gives their engineers plenty of time to look over the patents and work them into the design.

If they can utilize the super-charger stations Tesla is building around the US, that will help speed up acceptance of ev's, especially if they're reliable and have a decent amount of range on them by that time. I would love to see a car that has the range/power of a Tesla, but has a backup gas engine that can reliably do 50+ mpg in case you're not near a charging station. Sure, it may be a decade before that happens (cheaply anyway), but that would help boost sales and improvements of hybrid and ev's.

I'm really hoping they succeed in creating a real rival to the prius. It's not that I want Toyota to fail; far from it. I just want to see them face some real competition in the hybrid field, and be forced to compete with a rival car that can stand toe to toe with the prius in terms of mpg and reliability. This will ultimately mean consumers win in the end, because there will be more viable hybrid/ev's available, and they may also become more affordable as they try to outdo each other.

 

No car beats Prius in value, hybrid or otherwise. Toyota is competing just fine.

 

I would think the starting point would be the next generation focus platform from the rumor. If you are trying to compete with the prius, I doubt you add all of the cost of aluminum. Perhaps you do exactly what the prius did to drop weight. Lots of high strength steel along with a aluminum hatch and hood. The focus platform is heavier, but not so much as a european mpv (tall narrow car) like the c-max.

remember the f150 is a body on frame truck, so they are using a steel frame with an aluminum body. A prius competitor would be unibody and the cost of aluminum unibody is unlikely to be seen as an advantage to the buyer. i tend to think if the current prius was 52 mpg but cost $2K more then toyota would sell less of them.

cooled egr is definitely something ford has been looking at. I would guess that they would have 2 flavors of a hybrid drivetrain.

1) 2L atkinson, around 188hp total
2) 3 cylinder ecoboost around 145 hp (prius gen IV power)

Reuters is really saying ford wants to sell about 25% as well as a prius, in the future ford dedicated hybrid. Think of a focus front with a camback hatch with perhaps a 1.2kwh lithium battery and 3 cyclinder ice. Put in the cooled egr, a multi-air type valving to go into miller cycle except for hard acceleration. Iron block to have low start up penalty. It may be a good seller, that gets over 50mpg in the city in an eco mode.

I doubt ford will really go head to head. The future hybrid will likely have a better suspension and a quieter ride than the prius. For this I would expect that it would miss by a few mpg, but it doesn't need to be large. The big thing will be if they make it a better platform for a phev.

 

We will see the Ford competing not with the Prius of today but with the next-gen versions. So assume a 10-20% improvement by Toyota, that sets the bar a lot higher for Ford's new models with unproven reliability and a remembrance of false claims to overcome.

A 40k truck in aluminum is one thing, a $25-35k series of models in aluminum must carry costs which will cause a higher price. In the pure electric world, they will be competing in that time frame with Tesla's new low cost model to boot.

Yes, we as consumer's will win.

 

U.S. Ford C-Max Sales vs. Toyota Prius V & Plug-in Sales | C-MaxChat

 

Took my V to the state park today, loaded with inflatable kayak, chairs, cooler, life vests, towels, hardly made a dent. Produce a car with a cargo hold that large, get the mpg's, and make it more fun to drive, you have a winner. Cmax would have to be squatter and a bit longer to accomplish that. My guess is they'll build it on a dedicated platform.

 

Welp, Ford has their work cut out for them considering they were ranked 2nd to last as a brand just above Jeep in the recent Consumer Reports 'Best Cars' issue. Lot of reliability 'issues' according to CR. The 1.6L turbo Fusion SE is said to blow chunks on reliability.

 

Might be true, but a large part of the reliability hit came from their entertainment/informatics systems. They can thank MS for that

 

Agreed. One of the biggest reasons I came back to Toyota is the legendary reliability. The Subaru I owned between my toyota's could not hold a candle to them in that area. Maybe Ford will get there someday in both mpg and reliability. I'm certainly rooting for them to do so, especially since they were the only one of the Big 3 USA car makers to not take a bailout. But they have a long road ahead of them, IMO.