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A/C problem with no code

Discussion in 'Generation 1 Prius Discussion' started by Wisco, Jul 24, 2014.

  1. Wisco

    Wisco Member

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    I did check that the pressure switch was in range. I figured the AC could still be very weak/nonfunctional if it were on the low side of acceptable.

    Next step in the manual may be testing connections on the AC amplifier. Which does not look easy to get to.
     
  2. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    ... or, when you checked the pressure switch in post #10, did you remember to plug it back in after?

    I've tried to think of clever diagnostic steps, but nothing came out any more clever than the "compressor circuit" steps in volume 1 (page DI-923 in my 2001 book, might be different in your 2002).

    I assume your amplifier has the same "actuator check" mode my manual describes (DI-864 in my edition). In that mode, with the temp knob at max cool, I would definitely expect it to light an LED in the CLR MG socket. (Assuming the LED and resistor are good and the + LED terminal is in slot 1, - in slot 2...)

    Strange problem....

    -Chap
     
  3. Wisco

    Wisco Member

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    I'm looking at the same page. Worth a shot, I'll check the relay while doing the actuated check.

    And I guess the next step would be working through the lock sensor diagnostics. I can't find instructions on gaining access to the amplifier. I assume you have to go through the front multi-display area? The page listed for the amplifier is just a general introduction page, IN-41..

    Am I okay to test power to the relay with my multitester instead of the LED? I can stick the leads in and see the meter through the windshield..
     
  4. Wisco

    Wisco Member

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    What about the fact that I had the compressor engaged and the air wasn't cold? If the compressor is functional shouldn't manually engaging it produce some cold air?

    I'm worried there might be more layers to this problem than I can unravel. I don't even know how long it's been since the AC worked in this car.
     
  5. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    ... maybe the amount of refrigerant charge isn't optimal, maybe various things to diagnose if necessary, but I think they all get easier to diagnose if you fix the problem preventing the compressor running, which it seems like you're pretty close to doing.

    A multimeter at the relay coil terminals instead of an LED is fine.

    -Chap
     
  6. robert mencl

    robert mencl Member

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    Wisco, what are your system pressures high side/low side? Too high or low those pressure switches will prevent your relay from energizing the coil....
    Well you got your clutch to dog in, there's some progress...
     
  7. Wisco

    Wisco Member

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    I haven't determined the pressure, and I don't have A/C gauges to check. I'll see if Oriely's loans them out, but I doubt it.

    The only info I have is that I had continuity between the appropriate pins on the dual pressure switch. Not very precise, and it is extremely tight getting probes in there so it's hard to be sure. But I figured that meant the pressure is within range.

    I'm not giving up yet, so any suggestions welcome, but I'm focussing on other projects (such as building a tiny house). I'll probably have another car day next week.
     
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  8. robert mencl

    robert mencl Member

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    Tiny house! All the rage lately. Are you going to power it off the Prius? Chapman can advise you on inverters...
    I don't know if your pressure switches make or break to turn compressor on...but you could get a can of refrigerant at Wal-Mart with the hose and gauge all attached, for $15. keep it really clean and use that to test pressure- if you didn't actually use any refrigerant it wouldn't be too sinful to return it......tho I do like to squirt a little refrigerant thru the hose just before I skin the hose connector onto the port, to purge air out of the hose.
    If you have never recharged AC before, there's not a lot to it, Youtube has some great videos.
    Not likely that you are over on the high side but very possible you are under on the low side and that will cause the compressor to not kick in-don't be misled on pressure by that squirt of refrigerant you got when working on the sensor.
    The low side test and fill port is a little hidden from view, centered under the hood, just under a black hose. It's not the port over on the passenger side.
    Last year my Saturn was so low it wouldn't take refrigerant, and I had to hot wire the compressor clutch for the first half pound or so to help the gas to feed in. Then the low pressure switch did it's thing and allowed the compressor to stay on for the rest of the charge.
    Proper working Prius AC is a powerful system. My 02 is a dark color, but on a sunny at at 88 degrees it cools the car down quickly and I have to turn it down. Hope you have the same luck with yours.
     
    #28 robert mencl, Aug 7, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2014
  9. Wisco

    Wisco Member

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    I got a can of EZ Chill 134a. I wired up the clutch to run the compressor and set the AC to Max. The gauge read low, so I started filling it.

    At one point I heard gurgling on the passenger side of the engine and the pressure spiked into the red. Shortly afterwards it dropped back down so I figured it was safe to continue.

    I kept filling it up to the upper end of the acceptable range, then the gurgling came back and the pressure spiked all the way past the red zone! I kept the car running for another 30 seconds but the needle stayed buried. I'd blame the cheap guage, but when I attach or remove it, the pressure does seem legitimately high.

    Should I run the compressor a while to see if it settles down? Or have I put a dangerous amount in that will trash the compressor if I don't get the pressure down first?

    P.S. I'd love to incorporate the Prius into our tiny house energy system, but for now we just want to finish the darn thing. Last thing I need is another ambitious project :p
     
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  10. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    So, the correct charge is when you add about 100 more grams of refrigerant past where the bubbles in the sight glass just disappear (under the specified operating conditions). What did you notice in the sight glass while you were doing this?

    How were you holding the can of 134a? With the outlet at the top so only vapor was drawn off, or could you ever have tipped it enough that liquid refrigerant ran out? In the liquid state it's not compressible, so feeding it into a compressor is a way of asking the question "what happens when an immovable object meets an irresistible force?"

    Continuity between the pressure switch pins (from a couple of posts ago) did mean that your pressure was within range (or the switch was bad ... but if it was bad it was stuck showing the pressure was ok).

    -Chap
     
  11. Wisco

    Wisco Member

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    I'm not sure I looked once it red-lined, but there were bubbles the whole time I filled it.

    I was careful not to tip the can. I've read the other AC threads, I think you mentioned that somewhere.
     
    #31 Wisco, Aug 10, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
  12. Wisco

    Wisco Member

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    Cold air!!

    I checked it again and the pressure had dropped. Once the compressor was running, the guage settled at 45psi. There are still bubbles in the glass.

    But the air coming out of the vents was almost 20 degrees colder than ambient, a nice 61F.

    Now to see if it will run the compressor without my bypass..
     
  13. Wisco

    Wisco Member

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    The pieces are finally coming together.

    When I turn in the AC, the relay is energized for a second. Then the AC light blinks, just like the good old days (and no code of course).

    So, I hope the only remaining obstacle is the wiring between the relay and the clutch. I popped the relay back in, just to be sure, and the clutch still isn't engaging.

    I wonder if the Compressor Lock Sensor is able to communicate with the amplifier as well, it shares a wiring harness with the clutch.

    Thanks again for the advice, this has been a saga. 3 separate problems (so far) and one imaginary problem sensor :)
     
  14. Wisco

    Wisco Member

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    And.. fixed.

    I attached my existing bypass wire to the controlled large blade of the relay, and bingo!

    When my assistant turned on the AC the clutch locked down immediately and cold air pumped into the cabin. When the AC is turned off the clutch releases. No flashing lights, no codes.

    I'll want the install a more trustworthy bypass wire and connector, but the real work is done.

    Another Priuschat success story, thanks again.

    For my next project I'm doing something simple! I'm thinking spark plugs.
     
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  15. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Ok, that was bothering me ever since I wrote it, since I've got a manual here with page AC-49 clearly showing how to replace the dryer and filter, but I was having no luck finding those as parts.

    Of course they're on the engine cooling system/radiator drawing, because the condenser's integrated. Et voilĂ :

    88474-47010 dryer

    88377-22010 filter

    As for the O rings on the cap, I still haven't got a clue.

    -Chap
     
  16. robert mencl

    robert mencl Member

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    Wisco, could your ac compressor not kicking in be clutch still slipping? I remember you said warped plate...
    When I had a slipping clutch, mine pumped for a bit and made cold air, then kicked out, with the light blinking.
    I think you are using a bypass wire, would this sidestep the lock sensor signal on a slipping clutch.....might be that all that is left is a mechanical, not electrical problem at this point, and it's just the lock sensor doing it's job...or still too low on charge to satisfy the low pressure limit switch.
    I don't know how long it has been since my car was last charged, but when I charged the system last week, I used Chapman's method of 100 grams past the no bubbles point and my duct temp improved from 20 deg. below ambient to 30 deg. below ambient and the difference in performance is stunning!
    Anyway, I had a warped driven plate and it slipped enough for the lock sensor to kick it out often. when I pulled the driven plate I could see only half of it was making contact at all. I ground it so it had more full contact and then it worked well enough to stay engaged all day and cooled well.
    I have since replaced the entire clutch and kept the old, bastardized working one for a spare. If you think your clutch is slipping you are welcome to borrow it for testing by substitution, just refund my postage when you return it.
    Chapman's post above also gets into drier replacement. If you go that route and dump the charge, Autozone will loan you a vacuum pump free for a $150. deposit. Robert.
     
  17. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Just to be clear, I didn't mean to suggest that sounded like anything Wisco needs to do at this point ... just that it came up earlier in the thread (when it seemed possible removing the lock sensor had vented the charge) and it had bugged me that I couldn't find the part numbers, so I wanted to make a note when I did.

    -Chap
     
  18. Wisco

    Wisco Member

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    I do think the lock sensor is functioning. Since (as far as I can tell) it connects directly to the AC amplifier, the amplifier should cut power to the relay if it doesn't get the right pulse frequency from the sensor.

    I'll keep those parts in mind, Chap, there was a mouse nest in the cabin filter so I'm sure some debris is downstream clogging up something.

    Since I went by the gauge and the sight glass was still bubbling I might be able to get more charge into it and improve performance. But for now I am thrilled to have a functioning system.
     
  19. robert mencl

    robert mencl Member

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    Yup, that's what I am suggesting may be happening...car sensing clutch slippage due to the warped driven plate in the clutch, necessitating your bypass wire to stay engaged...
    About debris.....wonder if you could blow it out backwards by pulling the cabin air filter, close all outlets except one and blow into that with compressed air, maybe have a shopvac hose stuffed in the cabin air filter hole and stroke the heater door during the blowdown...in Iraq we had a lot of trouble with fine dust plugging the evaporators.
     
  20. Wisco

    Wisco Member

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    Unless I'm missing something, I wasn't clear in my reasoning. My bypass goes from the 'output' blade of the relay to the clutch, so the computer has to engage the relay for the clutch to get power. If the sensor were disconnected I don't think the amplifier would engage the relay. Really the only thing being bypassed is the section of wire between the relay and clutch.

    I can manually engage the clutch off the other blade of the relay (like when I charged with 134a), but as it is now the computer has full control.

    Thanks for the tip about dust, I'll give it a go next time I have access to a big shopvac.