Prius Sales Tank Even With Higher Gas Prices

Yeah, stupid Europeans, spending money on education and health. If they were smart like us, they could have hordes of THs running around too.

 

All new models have to be Euro 6 this year and all diesels sold new next year.

But there are Euro 6 diesel cars out there already that get over 90 mpg UK (74mpg US) with a CO2 of 82g/km such as this Peugeot;

New Peugeot 308 | 5-Door Hatchback | European Car of the Year 2014

It's the same size as a Prius and has a similar sized boot/trunk. Importantly and possibly why Prius sales are low, the base model costs £7,000/$11,700 LESS than a base Prius. That buys a lot of fuel even at $8 a gallon.

Euro 6 still doesn't apply across the range as yet but check page 8 on the link below to find that a number of vehicles comply, including some petrol ones.

http://www.peugeot.co.uk/media/peugeot-308-prices-and-specifications-brochure.pdf

 

Nice looking car and mileage is outstanding. Wonder how it does in US crash and emissions testing these days?

 

Being Euro 6 it would just need a tweak (VW diesels get through) and Peugeot have historically done very well in crash testing. OK, the US test is different and it would have to be tuned to comply with your legislation, but Honda and VW and Toyota all manage to sell cars in both markets.

Peugeot 308 | Euro NCAP - For safer cars crash test safety rating

It got a 5 star 92% rating compared to the gen3 Prius 5 star 88%. Pretty much the same.

Peugeot have often played with returning to the US market but I just doubt they ever will.

Peugeot Ponders Return to the U.S. Market | Edmunds.com

 

I get asked all the time about mine as well as get the same comments from others who did not go with a hybrid.

I tell people I overpaid for a car that gets 50+mpg when I could have paid 2/3's that amount and bought a car that gets 40+mpg without having to play games with the accelerator. That's the same rational from those who looked at a Prius but bought cheaper.

The owner of our company is looking to buy a small car just to get him back and forth to work and asked my opinion. His 4x4 is killing him on fuel costs. I told him to look at the Honda Fit. He and I are very much alike. I said you'll do just what I plan to do, trade it when the warrantee is up instead of sitting on pins and needles waiting for the traction battery or some other uber expensive repair.

Fuel is a commodity just like eggs or milk. We tend to get used to price hikes fairly quickly and then don't think much of it. A much talked about "usage fee" to replace the fuel tax will negate the idea of a high fuel economy car anyway and probably be way more popular. You will pay for how far you drive instead of being taxed on the amount of fuel used.

 

Thanks for the link. The P308 has multiple drivetrain options; only one of them is 82 gram CO2/km. The others are closer to ~ 100.

Still, very impressive and really excellent news. If I knew that diesel pollution controls were long lived I would change my mind about diesel cars.

As an aside ...
I was reading about hydraulic hybrids yesterday. They sound VERY promising, and Peugeot seems closest to getting one to market, perhaps in 2016. It is hard to know how much synergy diesel and hybrid of any kind will have together, but the Peugeot prototype captures up to 75% of braking energy, have tremendous torque, and is apparently much cheaper than battery hybrids. It seems at least plausible that we might be on the threshold of 50 grams CO2/km vehicles about the size of a Prius 'c' in a couple of years. That would be awesome.

Peugeot is shooting for 50 km/liter by 2020. That works out to about 46 grams CO2/km. Could a car have a 40 - 50 gram CO2/km fossil fuel and 10 - mile EV in the same drivetrain ? That would knock overall carbon pollution down to ~ 25 grams CO2/km for a large segment of the population if the EV source was clean.

 

You were not comparing the Prius base model versus the Jetta TDI base model, like I was. (shrug). I just double-checked and I can buy in Santa Ana for $18,700. Of course what I'd probably do is fly to San Francisco and buy the Jetta TDI for $17,700.

As for edmunds and other "cost to own" sites..... I find them bogus. I own or have-owned some of the cars listed, and I did NOT spend anywhere near the amount claimed. I spend about $150/car on insurance, about $40 on oil changes, and almost nothing on other maintenance when the car is new (because new things are under warranty). Also nothing on loan interest.

And my cost-to-own does not vary from model to model (insurance and oil changes are the essentially the same cost whether it's a TDI or my Prius). Only the diesel is higher..... it's about the same cost as 89 gasoline. So per 15000 mile year I would spend $35 more than my prius. But I would save $3000 in the initial purchase.

 

Which would just about cover typical repairs during the first 100,000 TDI miles....

 

We looked very seriously at the VW TDI, before buying our 2014 Prius. The biggest problem I had with the diesel TDI (besides the much higher price locally when compared to a similar optioned Prius & higher diesel fuel price), was my friends that own 2 of them them say the engine and MPG are Great, but everything around that engine,, falls apart! They both say they have had many multiple visits to the repair shops for way too many problems and their cars are full of squeaks and rattles that no one seems to be able to fix for them. So even though they are both huge VW fans, when I asked if they would suggest I buy one, they said, "ahhh,,, think real careful about that"... They also told me parts, and labor, seem quite high in price too.

 

You mean this?

Peugeot 2008 Hybrid Air runs on air and 'is greener than electric rivals' | Mail Online



or the smaller cousin;

Peugot reveals plans for Hybrid Air to hit streets next year | Mail Online

Running on nothing, I like that

 

When I testdrove the Prius V on the interstate, it gave me exactly the same MPG as the standard Prius (and about 3 mpg worse than the C). The larger prius is rated lower because of its weight, but that doesn't make any difference once you reach 70 miles/hour and just hold it steady.

 

yep

 

I apologize for talking to myself in public, I want to clarify the above paragraph.

I was wondering if the hydraulic HV (HHV) has a path to grid power for some of its miles. Just as the traction battery in an HV can be enlarged to accommodate electric energy from the grid, perhaps the gas reservoir can be modified to take on higher pressure or more volume. It would seem to be conceptually obvious although I have no idea about the engineering obstacles. I'll guess though that materials improvement in performance and price for the air storage container (carbon fibre anyone ?) will progress a lot faster than battery technology.

The first iteration of the Peugeot HHV can more on air only up to 43 mph and for about 500 meters. Surprising (or not) how those numbers mimic the G2 Prius. I know the hydraulic is integrated into the drivetrain with an epicyclic gear but I have not seen details how gears are implemented. Perhaps only something very rudimentary since this is a serial hybrid in concept.

 

It's an amazing and amazingly simple concept. Just been having a quick read up on it and the air tank is under very high pressure, but even if it does fail in an accident it is just air and not hydrogen so much safe. Even the carbon fibre tank doesn't produce shrapnel if it fails.

No issues of obtaining lithium or expensive motors or computer systems, just simple old compressed air. I guess the car works normally if the tank was empty or if there was a fault.

What about a solar panel to run the compressor whilst parked and then set off with a full tank of air for best economy? This doesn't work on a BEV or PHEV as the panel would only provide a few miles for free if parked in the hot sun. A small electrical compressor could happily run all day for only a few watts of power. I guess it could even run off 12 volts.

Is this idea of compressed air the same as the over engineered Space Pen developed at hundreds of thousands of dollars (PHEV) compared to using a pencil (compressed air)?

 

My first question would be how much pressure is the air stored at and how much energy does it take to compress it.
I suspect that number is being ignored.

 

The pressure of the main tank is high, very high, in the low thousands of psi! But some high pressure diesel pumps used in common rail diesels can reach in the tens of thousands of psi.

The power required to charge it comes from regeneration braking. The second link I gave above has a film at the bottom which (after the adverts) explains more how the system works. The following link also explains but is mainly about cars that are exclusively powered by compressed air rather than a hybrid.

Compressed air car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

As a low energy density energy buffer, it sure has some simple advantages. Keep in mind nearly all cars on the road just dump any excess energy so the comparison should be to conventional cars, not other hybrids. The cost vs. return curve has many different users.

Don't overlook the thermodynamic losses of air heating and cooling as it is compressed, nor the effect of compressed humidity on ice formation or build up. Submarine air compressors have dehumidifiers prior to air compression to prevent ice plugging when releasing air. It is simple in concept, but the details of working everywhere on the planet in all seasons is demanding regardless of the technology invoked.

 

One of the logical comparisons when I looked at my Prius v was the Jetta TDI wagon. In terms of ride, handling, interior, the Jetta was a superior vehicle. But then the real-world comes into play. Number one, it's a VW. I have two friends that are AVID VW diesel fans. Despite their warranty issues (new dash panel, other electronic issues with windows, console, etc.., their never-ending dealer vista which always cost enough to make my eyes wide), they are VW diesel purists.

Speaking of dealers, that's another part of the equation that always makes my knees weak. Combined with their reliability, cost of service, extra cost for diesel fuel, urea replacement, so-so city economy, I went with the reliable choice. It's also not as fun having the diesel in the winter here, and block heaters are definitely a welcome addition.

 

I prefer to think of these cars as pressure hybrids since the medium undergoing compression and expansion can be anything from nitrogen to oil.

Fl_Prius_Driver: Can you estimate the thermo losses for a cycle ? The high pressure tank goes up to 5000 psi, appears to be a cylinder about 4 feet long with a radius of 4 inches, and provides enough energy with discharge to move the car 500 meters on flat land -- say 60 Wh.

GC: Regen is one of the ways the cylinder gains pressure. If the design is that of a serial hybrid then all motive force is through pressure.

 

FPL,

Check out this discussion of the TD of hydraulic hybrids.
The heat loss is resupplied from the waste heat of the ICE in the 'accumulator' -- is that the high pressure tank ?