Nissan Prices LEAF Battery Replacement at $5,499, New Packs More Heat Durable

Has anyone charted mph vs "miles/kWh" for the Leaf?

How about altitude change vs "kWh"?

Knowing the weight, I can do the math but was curious if this has already been done in a public forum. I have a lot of admiration for the Leaf pioneers but my range requirements are pretty hard, Huntsville to Nashville:

• ~120 miles
• ~2 hours
• ~100 m elevation change, rising towards Nashville

My cars must be able to make that trip.

Bob Wilson

 

You could approximate it with Prius MPG on that trip and EPA rating, I think you would not be far off, shave off 10% just to be sure

 

how difficult/costly would it be to add ice extender to ev's?even if it's just to get you out of a jamb.

 

Well BMW charge an extra £3,000 inc 20% vat, or about $5,100 for a tiny engine. I guess a full size engine like in the Ampera/Volt takes up significant room where the inverters and motors would normally sit.

 

It could be pretty challenging. The nearly flat, voltage discharge curve of LiON batteries means even subtle dV changes are not there to measure the actual level. This leads to 'columb counting' approaches which means counting amps in and out. It is only only the exhaustion and full charge, brief events, that the battery manager knows the SOC.

In contast, the NiMH battery has a curve that can give a clue as to the SOC. So seeing the original NiMH RAV4 towing a range extender made a lot of sense. That is something a reasonably competent engineer could handle.

In an ideal world, the range extender is engineered as part of the system. It would need to comply with emissions as well as face the difficult round-trip, energy losses. This however suggests another approach . . . range 'tug.'

Have the range extender be a pusher (or tractor) that provides a forward motive force. It needs to couple with the driver controls but in effect the car would always 'seem' like it is going 'down hill.' This would allow some really interesting engine systems:

• Sterling - external combustion, flex fuel, the heat exchangers require bulky but not so heavy engine.
• Turbine - any cheap fuel, works best with exhaust heating of compressor output, lots of fuel options.
• Steam - Ok, so I wanted to be an engineer since I was 4 years old and saw a steam engine and I asked,"Who is the driver?" and learned he is called "the engineer." Good thing I could not see the fireman!

Bob Wilson

 

Bob, we just bought a (rental for the next 5 years) home this last weekend, just south of Nashville (Nolensville) so we can be close to the kids when we retire in 4 to 8 years. Checking out plugshare.com - there are a BUNCH (many are FREE!!) of DC QC's around the area - which means even if one of the QC dies temporarily - or is off line when you get there, you're still not stranded, as another QC is not too far off. From experience, you can easily push an additional 30 miles of range into the leaf in just 10min-12minutes using a chademo. I'd go for the used one if I were you - and save a boat load .... not that I wouldn't want to have that 125 mile range bad boy. As for Nissan FINALLY releasing the price quote for the traction pack . . . . . iduno . . . . I always guessed it'd eventually come in at around $260 - $276 per usable kWh anyway. With a $1,000 core ... heck ... I might drive ours down 'till I can only get 25 miles of range ... since it's only 19.5 miles to work anyway.
After 40,500 + miles - we still have all 12 bars on the guess-o-meter. But still - we've likely lost over 12% capacity ... even tho we've baby'ed the pack using cool temp's & charging below 80% each time. As it's going now, the crappy/low grade upholstery will die long before the traction pack goes too low.

Check out the last post here for the range chart. It's pretty accurate, from my experience:

My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - Leaf Range calculation

And . . . if you've lost 15% or 30% or what ever capacity - it still works, backing out that lowered capacity loss.
.

 

I doubt that less that one meter elevation change per mile matters enough to calculate. What matters more is the elevation profile overall. From this map (Google Maps Find Altitude ) it seems you go up ~100m about half way then back down. It would be worse if the uphill was all at the end.

Mike

 

Quick rule of thumb; you dump one guess-o-meter bar for every 1,000 feet of altitude that you ascend. You regen at about 1/2 that rate ..... meaning you regen 1 bar for each 2,000 feet of descent.
.

 

For what car?

I've actually found that the regen rate is highly variable...In the PIP I've gotten ~12 miles with a drop of ~2400 ft. And I've also seen just a couple of miles with 4000 ft drop. The difference is the first case was slow and windy with lots of braking...the second was 65 mph.

Mike

 

Bob was talking Leaf so yea - I was talking Leaf. The PiP regen is based off its smaller size just like the regen on tesla/larger packs are based on their much larger packs.
.

 

So the pricetag is the same cost as replacing an engine in a standard car. As for "100 mile range" that was determined on the LA City test where the car rarely goes above 35 miles/hour, and so energy not wasted on air resistance.

How long at a ChaDemo charger? I'd guess only 1 hour to reach 80% full.

Would you like some tea?

 

You'd guess wrong again.

20-30minutes to reach 80%.

 

So in other words the 150 mile battery does NOT require an overnight charge. Fotomoto was spreading FUD

 

The 150mi rumoured battery, remember there is NO official announcement from Nissan, is supposedly in the 36KWh range. 24KWh is "100mi" that the Leaf currently has. You can use about 90% of the battery. So assuming you drive to turtle and charge to 100% every day, that's 32.4KWh to be recharged.

The current Leaf has a 6.6KW charger onboard. Rumoured again is a larger charger for the larger pack. But assuming they do not change the charger, to get to 80% charge from turtle on the 150mi battery at 6.6KW charge rate, you are looking at 4hours. Even though there is only 6KWh left to "fill" in the battery, the charge at the top is slower and then it top balances. So a reasonable guess would be an additional 1.5 - 2.5 hours for the last 20%. Total charge time from completely dead to 100% full around 5.5-6.5 hours on an L2 charger. Most likely 30 hours on an L1 charger.

And then if you charge 80% from a 65KW DCQC L3 CHAdeMO that's only 24 minutes from 0% to 80%. Most likely another 20-30 minutes for the final 20%. But once you get to 80%, there is no reason to still use a DCQC since it will taper the charge to L2 levels essentially. The 2013 and 2014 Leafs can charge CHAdeMO fast charge to 90% in the small time before the taper starts hurting it. pre-2013 are 80%. And 2014 took away the 80% limit.

So the average consumer at home will have an L2 charger. An L3 DCQC requires a 480v 3 phase service and the units are in the $20K to $80K range depending on what type you get and who/what is subsidizing it. But the real hampering is that no residential service (in the world?) has a 480v hookup. There is usually a 220v - 240v hookup into the house. Then in the colonies we split each phase to deliver half that on 2 live lines for the main receptacles where other places keep it 2phase higher voltage. That means average Leaf Buyer Joe Schmoe will have a 6.5 hour recharge time from empty.

Now, what does this number mean? Well for 99% of the time, it means nothing. For instance I drive my Leaf everyday now and put on many miles. I charge with L1. I drive 10miles, park, then drive 5-10miles, park, drive, park, etc, etc. I just plug in at work and plug it at home. My "charge time" is essentially 2 minutes. 30 seconds to plug in, 30 seconds to unplug, 2 locations for 4 times a day on average. If my car fully charged in 20minutes or 10 hours, I don't care. The fact is when I am ready to leave work or home, the car is charged. It would otherwise just charge fast and then sit there charged waiting for me. The only time this is useful is long range trips, but that is where the DCQC network comes in (like the Tesla Superchargers, same basic concept) or you just use your gasser or rent a car. I rented a Mercedes from Hertz for $14.97 a day last time. Why even bother worrying about it when the cars are so easy to get your hands on and use?

 

AV's website shows a budget/indoor version Chademo starting @ just under $10K. Anyone CAN have 3phase at home (if you already have 240v) , by installing a rotary phase converter/motor. Back in the day we did that in order to run commercial machinery in our garage. Modernly, they're quite efficient - and not too pricy (used/rebuilt on ebay) ... if you can swallow that Chademo price.
A cheaper way to charge faster - several Leaf owner's have added Brusa chargers to boost 240v charging rates to 10kW's which works out to appx 30miles-40miles in as little as 30 minutes - turning on terrain & temperatures.
.

 

I tried looking at AV's site, and I didn't see that charger. $10K isn't bad. Is it one of those 18KW chargers? Because there are some CHAdeMO chargers at 18KW or so and not the full spec speed the Leaf can take.

 

No, I'm not. A CHADMEO is not 240v. Please read it again.

Double the range (75 to 150) should mean double the battery size (or close to). At the current 6.6kwh rate that most public chargers offer, the current LEAF takes 5+ hours for a full charge according to Nissan's website. Double that to 10 hours at 240v and, yes, I call that overnight. Forget trying to use 120v.

I test drove a 2014 Leaf in S trim today. Nice car.

 

According to the manuals, New Leafs L2 charge rate is @ 6kW - not 6.5. The older ones (like ours) do a L2 charge @ 3.5kW's. At 3.5kW's and bone dry to 100%, it completes in 6hrs. If you have an older traction pack it knocks at least 10% off that 6 hours due too capacity loss. Keep your traction pack long enough - you'll eventually be able to charge in less than 1/2 the time from when it was new.

Nissan told us that capacity loss is non-linear. So capacity loss slows after the initial 15% loss. However from Leaf owner's experience, it seems Nissan failed to recognize another issue of capacity loss. Many owners of Leafs that are now 2 & 3+ years old (high mileage) report they're having to rely more & more on quick charging (owners that travel 60-70mile round trips). Regular quick charging in turn generates more heat - which in turn accelerates battery aging / capacity loss. It seems so simple I fail to understand how Nissan could have missed that.

EDIT:

You are right. I miss-spoke saying it's by AV. It's actually a joint venture by Sumitomo & Nissan:
NISSAN | NISSAN, SUMITOMO BRING LOW-COST ELECTRIC-CAR QUICK CHARGER TO U.S. MARKET

And yes - by it's charge rate, it must necessarily be full power:

 

my laptop lithium meter is very accurate. Just because the swing is not as steep as nimh, does not mean that it and energy flow can not be measued. Just taking laptop and camera battery metering tech makes this fairly straightforward. Nissan's and BMW's guess-o-meters are easy to improve on.

having this is just a kludge to comply to zev regulations. Really the only advantage is it can be removed. There is nothing saying that a dealership couldn't drop in, and pull out range extenders ;-) Its just a different business model. I am guessing 2 hours of labor if properly designed.

I think bmw and gm have shown us two possible solutions. It can be purely serial hybrid EREV the REx drops mpge from 124 mpge to 117 mpe, the cost is about $4850 to the consumer (likely bmw would rather sell without the ice, or could price it lowre). As in real world electric miles the rex probably goes farther, even though the epa aer is lower, owners being afraid of running out of juice will stop shorter than range. Volt owners on average drive further than leaf owners.

Volt is the next choice. It uses a serial hybrid or a psd type power connection depending on the situation. The psd is more efficient at higher speeds for charge deplete mode. Here we can guess the ice adds about $6000 to the price of the vehicle, with the lager engine and more complicated transmission. mpge is 98 mpge, as it likely can't take as much regen braking and is heavier.

Last up is the i8. This uses the ice in blended mode as well as allowing volt like extended range. Full acceleration is not possible without the ice. Here most drivers will use more gasoline as the range is smaller.

A small inexpensive 3 cyclinder ice in serial erev configuration like the i3, would likely make a good range extender for the leaf, and could likely be produced for less than $5000 in the leaf. Just look at how cheaply nissan is able to sell the versa, that engine can not cost very much. Cut off a cylinder, the transmission, add a generator, and it won't cost much at all.

 

Nissan priced the pack low for two basic reasons

1) as an exclusive benefit to the people who have chosen to take the risk aka as LEAF. this is why outright purchases are not an option and the price is low and exchanges required. The price imm, is not sustainable in the open market. but the market is limited to a percentage of the 2011/12 LEAFs out there. I am predicting the number of 2013/14 LEAFs out there that will opt for this will be much lower

2) knowing a cheap replacement pack is available will boost used LEAF prices. most of the LEAFs out there are leased, in part due to loss of range expected a few years after purchase. Granted, auto manufacturers rarely care about used car values, but dealerships do so this becomes a win-win

DaveinOlyWA: For Sale; 24 Kwh Battery Packs!!