It's official Toyota is full speed fuel cells for compliance after 2014

ah man you guys are gonna crap all over me for that last post...

 

Yeah, the "bleed-thru" is being noticed by lots of people...only they're NOT members of this forum (wink,wink).

 

Why guess? The sources and availability of Lithium can be determined with some basic Internet research. What I found interesting is how much the Lithium costs in an expensive LiIon Battery.

Availability of Lithium – Battery University

Efficiency is measured at the whole car level, not by just picking select components. For example, what if I consider the weight of the entire ICE drivetrain in a conventional car. That is parasitic as well. If a BEV gets me from point A to B for half the cost, I would say that is twice as "efficient" for a cost per mile metric...and those are the metrics that get my attention.

Why would someone base BEV success on Tesla's stock price instead of Tesla sales? The Tesla issue is price, not technology limitations (nor stock price.) Is there some technology shortcoming of the Tesla S?

 

oh wow this is not going away...

If the ICE is half the weight of a car then I would concur that the system is parasitic by nature and therefore it is totally inefficient, ride a bike instead, but my understanding is that BEV was suppose to be efficient and superior in every way from conventional automobile AND non-plug in hybrids. The Model S' is one dam heavy car, and on their website they won't tell you how much the car weights and how much the battery alone weights and we don't know how long LiOn batteries will last.

I'm not sure why anyone would base BEV success on Tesla's stock price neither...but some actually do and have posted in this thread and another one but I forgot which one cause I'm getting crapped all over on from this forum by some members for simply agreeing with Toyota's take for stepping away from BEV's and providing my own speculations and possible explanations. Name calling is my favorite!

Lots of opinions on this forum from individuals and ZERO skins in the game...companies like Toyota and Porsche take huge amount of economic risks all the time to stay ahead of the innovation front and I personally don't think they make important decisions like stepping away from certain technologies lightly especially after they drop hundreds of millions of R&D on these projects...in Toyota's case over a $1B for the Prius and then they got fined for $1B for the whole unintended acceleration fiasco too and yet they're still chugging along trying everything...BEV, FCV, they were hesitant about PHEV due to LiOn volatile tendency but release the PPI.

IMO I think the only short coming for the Tesla Model S, E & X (giggity), is the battery and rear head room is less than ideal. Porsche just released the 918 Spyder plug in hybrid as their top of the line hyper car for $880K. If pure BEV was superior, Porsche engineers would have gone to Elon Musk for help to design their awesome brand anchoring vehicle.

 

It's almost as if you don't read what I wrote...but thanks for doing the search for me. 4647lb for 85kwh battery pack, so how much does the car weight now? I think 4647lb is the gross vehicle weight, what is the weight of the battery pack alone?

 

Again, I believed I said the 918 is a plug in hybrid.

My only comment here would be to say, Please Toyota bring the Supra back in the FT-1 concept and sell it for 10X less than the price of the 918 Spyder! I do not nor need 800+ hp, just 300hp will do and 100mpg+ fuel efficiency!

 

Something I heard on Autoline After Hours is that CARB is changing the rules next year that requires: 300 mi range and recharging/refueling time similar to an ordinary car. I have not checked the CARB web site to confirm this report. If accurate, fuel-cells and a few exotic battery systems may be in effect mandated to enter the CARB market.

Bob Wilson

 

Technology by legislature? I doubt it!

Throw enough of the people's money at enough stupid ideas, and random probability will provide an occassional success.

 

I believe that already went into effect. The Tesla S meets the 300mi range. CARB uses their own formula for that. Then Tesla developed that battery swapping system for the refuel portion. CARB didn't like that, so they excluded battery swapping as a refueling type.

The only thing Toyota sees in FCEVs over BEVs is increased profit. The motor has a little to zero maintenance needs. Raw materials for it seem to be more of a bottleneck than ones for the battery. Beyond suspension components, there is only the battery that might need replacing down the road with a BEV. With a FCEV there is the battery plus the fuel stack and the fuel tanks. Neither of which has had any info released on their lifespan.

There are already third parties refurbishing and servicing batteries for the Prius. The likely that this will happen for BEV batteries is pretty good. CNG tanks have a set shelf life. Hydrogen ones will also. Just no one who has an interest in them wants to say what that lifespan is. Same with the fuel cell stack.

 

The funny thing is the ordinary Prius hatchback is a sales success outside of CARB and around the world. For volume production and economies of scale, the Prius is the clear winner with maybe in some of the other hybrids and fuel efficient vehicles. In about 10 days, we'll have the May sales numbers and get a chance to see what is going on.

The only wild-card is the actual decrease in gasoline price I'm seeing in my local market. I don't know if it is nation wide but softening gasoline prices takes away a powerful motivator for non-technical, owners. The only mitigation is the Prius price point has reached pretty much what other similar sized and equipped cars are going for. Now if we can figure out a way to call it a 'station wagon' instead of a hatchback. <GRINS>

Bob Wilson

 

Ironically, both Caliprunia and Aridzona labelled our 2004 & 2009 Pontiac Vibes as "stationwagons" while many GM parts sellers list them under the "Pontiac -- TRUCK" heading!?!?!

 

I'm pretty sure you could see through that extreme exaggeration when you saw it.

This is a discussion site, not a "Blinded by Toyota" cheering section. When Toyota does good, a great many don't hesitate to point that out. The Prius is great engineering. When Toyota makes missteps, it is intellectually dishonest to gloss this over because it is Toyota. Toyota's handling of faulty engine ECUs falls in that category. The present heavy handed manipulation of the CARB representatives also appears to fall in that category.

Please don't confuse disagreeing with you as "crapped all over". We understand how you feel. What we don't see is the factual discipline demonstrating that feeling is worthy of propagating to others. When you make a global statement such as "Pure Battery Electric Vehicles DOES NOT WORK", did you really expect people fantastically impressed with the Tesla S to agree? Should I ignore those first hand owners knowledge based on your statement out of the blue....or should I expect some clear facts/mathematics showing why the Tesla S doesn't work? This absolutely is not crapping on you, it is finding out where the disconnect is between what you say vs. most Telsa S owner claims.

When seriously evaluating and spending many tens of thousands of dollars on the next car being a BEV or PHEV, that is not "Zero skins in the game...." it is the exact opposite. Knowing exactly what benefits and drawbacks will be enjoyed or inflicted on the next car purchase requires lots of homework and careful knowledge accumulation.

 

Simple: Agree...to...disagree.

 

I think you need to relax. Limiting the charge load to extend the traction battery life is a perfectly sensible thing to do. It is a reasonable response to the limits of current, LiON battery chemistry used in the Leaf.

I don't fault reasonable response to the characteristics of the Leaf battery technology. Just I'm not interested in joining them.

Bob Wilson

 

Pennsylvania calls my friend's Tahoe a station wagon. Guess that is how it is mostly used, but the state charged about $30 more in registration for the Ranger, a turck to them, I used to have.