The "eco" cars (hybrid economy w/o the cost)

Only useful if you value the dollar above everything else. Saving gas, is saving gas and that's a good thing. If you want to save the most money, go buy a junker for $300 and drive it until the wheels most likely literally fall off.

Nobody tries to justify the cost of "normal" cars when compared against themselves. Only the hybrid, electric, and "eco" cars are expected to pay you back?

 

I think the combined cycle is misleading. The Australian and EU equivalents are even worse. But whatever, those figures don't tell you the full story. Which car is more economical depends on what kind of driving you do.

Most of my driving is in the city, in traffic jams. So for me, there's a vast gap between what I can get from a hybrid and what I'd get from an economical normal car. I typically get around 5.1l/100km (46mpg (US)) in my Prius. The 1.8 petrol Golf I had before this, on the same driving pattern, was getting closer to 15l/100km (15mpg (US)). Over my typical year of about 8,000 miles, that's a difference of 533-173 = 360 gallons. We typically pay about US$ 5.67 for a US gallon, so that's saving of more than US$ 2,000 per year in the Prius over the Golf.

But when I drive to Canberra (a steady 70 (ish, officer) mph, over about 200 miles), I also average about 5.1l/100lm (46mpg (US)). My Dad has a Passat TDI (mentioned in your list) wagon. Living in Britain, he does a lot more long-distance driving than I do. When he's driving to Glasgow (about the same as my drive to Canberra), he averages about 70mpg (UK) (58mpg (US)). And that's the way he does most of his driving. So for him, a diesel is the most economical car, whereas for me, a hybrid is the most economical car.

The Consumer Reports article you mentioned seems to fail to take all of these factors into account.

 

I don't know where you are (US?). And I'm not sure how depreciation works in America. But here in Australia, it's very much worthwhile to buy a used car. In particular, it's worthwhile buying a two-year-old ex-government car at auction. They're properly maintained, absolutely stock (as long as it's not an ex-police car), and the drivers are subject to all sorts of rules on things like smoking and driving like an idiot.

But cars here are very expensive new in comparison to the US, and depreciate horribly for the first two years, and then slow down dramatically.

So my car would have been A$ 40,000 new. I bought it when it was two years old, with 40,000km (25,000 miles on it), absolutely stock, with a full service history, in immaculate condition. It cost me A$ 16,000. I've had it nearly four years, and it looks like I could get about A$ 14,000 for it now if I were to sell it privately. So it lost A$ 24,000 in its first two years, when someone else owned it, and it's lost A$ 2,000 in the four years that I've owned it. (A$ 1 is US$ 0.93 just now).

When I replace my car (which I may do this year, with a newer-shape Prius or a HyCam), I'll do the same thing. I much prefer to let other people to take the depreciation hit.

In Hong Kong, the depreciation doesn't slow down like it does in Australia - it just keeps on going. The worst (best for me) depreciation I've dealt with was a Mercedes CL600 which I bought when I lived in Hong Kong (and later sold in Australia). In the ten years before I bought it, it had done 60,000km (just under 40,000 miles). And in that time, the value had dropped from HK$ 2.2 million (US$ 280,000) to HK$ 60,000 (US$ 7,700). So depreciation cost the previous owner US$ 35 per kilometre (US$ 50 per mile), or US$ 540 per week.

Also in Hong Kong, I bought a 13-year-old, reasonably-functional Saab 9000 for HK$ 1,000 (US$ 120). I didn't take too much of a hit on depreciation when I got rid of that one.

​

 

There's definitely worthwhile money to be saved in buying a 2 - 3 year old car.

I bought two three year old cars summer of 2000. A BMW 328i and a Subaru Outback.

I sold them both lady summer after 13 years. $22,000 depreciation on the BMW over 100k miles; $13,000 on the Subaru over 130 k miles.

Pretty hard to beat.

 

There is just one other aspect to all those calculations and I do not dispute one word you are saying. If you can afford a new luxury car and if that is what makes you happy, go for it.

 

Features also need to be taken into account with eco trims. The Cruze ECO is better equipped than the base LS. The HF and LX Civic have the same features except the HF has the CVT standard, which is an additional $800 add to the price of the LX

 

All very true.

But from what I've heard - and I haven't tried them - Ford's 1.0 engine, in the Fiesta or the Focus, gives a much nicer driving experience than the 1.4 or 1.6. Everything I've heard suggests that it's more powerful, has better low-down torque, is smoother, and sounds nicer. So once again, you're paying for more than just the mpg.

 

The world is too big and life too short to put up with a car you want to hate. Sell it and give someone else the initial depreciation gift.

Now our first Prius was bought used. 49,000 miles, 2 years old, and 800 miles away. We also bought the shop manuals. It is still in the driveway with 100,000 miles and still gets 52 MPG after the first two months when I was learning how the Prius works. We bought it nine years ago.

So if you don't like your ride and can't figure out how to use it, sell it and find some happiness.

Bob Wilson

 

Not everyone drives nor works on a highway nor is able to do their commute at highway speeds. Plenty of folks have to travel on surface streets and highways w/tons of stop and go and idling during rush hour.

http://nhts.ornl.gov/2009/pub/stt.pdf on page 42 from 2009 puts the average annual miles per vehicle at 10,088 in 2009.

There's far more to ownership costs than just upfront cost and fueling cost. The Dodge Dart Aero is the most expensive overall in 5 year costs for a compact car, per CR.

Ownership Costs | Cost of Vehicle Ownership - Consumer Reports
What That Car Really Costs to Own | Cost of Vehicle Ownership - Consumer Reports
Most and Least Expensive Cars to Own | Cost of Car Ownership - Consumer Reports News
Best Car Values | Best Cars for the Money - Consumer Reports

Low to mid 30-ish MPG combined isn't "hybrid economy" unless you want to compare to much higher performance hybrids. Ones that get impressive combined mileage (e.g. 40 mpg combined 3-cylinder Mirage) are apparently penalty boxes: Mitsubishi Mirage Reviews - Mitsubishi Mirage Price, Photos, and Specs - CARandDRIVER. The 3-cylinder Fiesta 1.0 is available only w/a manual transmission. Some of those vehicles like the Fiesta are subcompact cars, per EPA classification. The Passat TDI starts at over $26K.

And, for most of the non-Japanese cars listed, their reliability is not-so-good to dismal.

 

I agree with cwerdna and would only add. Get rid of that 'hateful' Prius and buy some other car, ones from your list. Then share your happiness and satisfaction in those forums or one of the PriusChat "other car" forums.

Life is too short to be known as a Prius owner who hates his ride because he can not get above the left-edge of the Prius MPG "Bell Curve" in urban driving. Hates the Prius because there are cheaper cars that are infinitely more appealing. In spite of the commercial, a Prius is NOT for everyone.

Prius is not like any other car and though it has a powerful traction battery and two electric motors, it is not really an electric car. The Prius really is something different and remains a mystery . . . especially to automotive press reporters.

For those who are curious, the Prius remains a fascinating machine that still teaches and gives 'hands on' to uncommon technology. But not everyone shares my wonder at the world and basic curiosity.

Bob Wilson

 

Concur.
However (comma!)
"Prius Smugness" and "Prius Hate" notwithstanding a Prius IS suited for the vast majority of drivers out there, and if you keep the car for >100,000** miles and/or buy it used?
I can't think of a much cheaper car to put in your driveway.
They're pretty green too....depending on what that means to you and yours.


There is a hybrid premium, but over the last three years that premium has been reduced by rising fuel prices, rising base model prices, CAFE regulation changes and other factors....and you cannot lash a 1kw inverter to many of the other ecoboxes out there when it gets dark after a storm.


(**) and falling. Fast.

 

Why not?
Can't deny they'll use more fuel than a Prius doing so, but they might use less than a portable generator. They will do so with less emissions at least.

 

I was thinking that the alternators that top off the 12v battery in something like a 1 liter Ford wouldn't be up to scratch for the job.
Please correct my misunderstandings in this regard, since I'm in an area that can be impacted by a hurricane!

How large an inverter can you hang off of these cars?

 

I'm guessing that the typical alternator would be rated at ~80 A which just about gets you to 1 kW but you'd have to be racing the engine and I suspect the duty cycle would kill it.

 

I miss my 1977 Rabbit Diesel. Bought it second-hand for $1000 with 50,000 miles on it, put another 100,000 miles and sold it for $800 4 years later. 4 seats, 50+ mpg.