It's official Toyota is full speed fuel cells for compliance after 2014

I'm not so sure.......check this out:
Compare Side-by-Side
Range is 160 miles, more than ANY non-Tesla EV, including, ironically enough, the highest-range non-Tesla EV out there......the Rav4 EV. Also, fills up in a few minutes on road trips

But that applies to the FCX Clarity several times over. Think about how cheap it would be to put up a bunch of CNG pumps along I-80 from Reno to NYC. Natural gas flows everywhere in this country and a simple pump that dries and compresses it to about 5000 psi would be all that is needed. By contrast, the FCX Clarity would require billions in new electrolysis or NG reforming facilities.

No offense taken! It is Toyota/Lexus that should be apologizing
Fl-Prius Driver gave the reasons, and I'll quote here........

Would love to hear from Toyota! Hello?

 

Here are some details:

2015 Toyota Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle First Drive - Motor Trend

10,000 psi would hold a lot of CNG. At that level, CNG approached gasoline in energy density.
And, [HSD + ICE] is cheaper and longer-lasting than [FC's + HSD].
<sigh> Toyota, what are you doing?

 

It was fleet sales only, but there was a CNG Crown Vic before the Civic.
Honda and Mercedes are the only companies I'm aware of that had pilot programs leasing FCEVs to private citizens

The Insight was limited by the two seats, and the Civic hybrid by its price for their sales.
I defended the Insight2 design because the profile does go back to the CRX and Aztek, but it was hard after awhile. Owners do have positive things to say about the car. Like the cargo area being more usable by being longer than the Prius c. Honda would have done better just giving the US the Fit hybrid though.
The first Accord hybrid was too early for a power hybrid. Maybe if it had been an Acura. The CRZ seemed to be trying to do too much at once.

The lack of public refueling structure is what kept CNG Civic sales low, and limited other models to fleet sales. Those available were likely low pressure that took up to 20 minutes to fill a car. The company that made the Phil home refueling station went out of business. Phil required annual servicing that could run to $2000. The Civic CNG had the range of the gasoline one, and lost trunk space to the fuel tank. Which was where the hybrid battery went. A CNG Accord hybrid wouldn't work as a CARB compliance car. It seems easily forgotten that the Accord PHEV is only sold in two states.


I and others have asked, "why not simply burn the NG in an ICE" on other fuel cell threads. It does have potential for a fuel over gasoline and diesel, but also has some drawbacks. The big one it shares with FCEVs, the tanks. Physics dictate the shape, limiting packaging within a personal vehicle, and regulations give them a shelf life.

For shipping trucks, those are minor issues, and companies are switching fuels there. Perhaps that will expand

It would hold more, but possibly not enough to justify the infrastructure cost. There are CNG stations out there already. Not many, but they won't be able to fill up a 10K psi tank all the way. Anybody know why the CNG tanks are limited to 5000psi now?

The refueling psi might be an issue for the FCEVs coming out soon. Some of the few hydrogen stations might only fill to the 7000psi of earlier cars. So shorter range from those stations.
public refueling stations in the future. IIRC, GM announced offering the Impala with a dual-fuel CNG option.

 

And I don't know of the legislation in the US but I know the LPG tanks here need an annual inspection and they operate nowhere near 5000 psi. The tanks are going to need to be inspected annually, and that then begs the question of who by and for how much. I can't imagine your average Honda or Toyota dealer are going to have the necessary experience or insurances.

 

CNG hybrid running cost would be similar to a small battery Plug-In gas hybrid! Compare Side-by-Side
Texas launches $2500 incentive for CNG, electric vehicles
Toyota Prius CNG - a more hybrid hybrid | gazeo.eu
.

 

Do you know how much juice it takes to drop temps close to absolute zero - in order to liquify ng? Too bad relatively low pressure methol keeps getting ignored.
.

 

Well, there you go. I think we've hit on the real reason for all this FC insanity. Well if CARB can conjure up car specs devoid of any grounding in energy economics, then I can do better. See my next post.

True, but let's remember that when the Civic GX was released back in '02, U.S. natural gas prices were 5x what they are now. Ironically enough, it is cheap natural gas that is 'driving' this renewed interest in FCVs. NG keeps getting ignored for direct burn, probably thanks to ethanol and Koch, as AG mentioned. Pickens needs to step up his lobbying

There is hope:
Gas 2 | Bridging the gap between green heads and gear heads.

What I would like to do is compare loss of cargo and/or passenger space between PHEVs and a NG HEV. Yes, the standard gasoline Civic will have more of one or both since it has a smaller tank and no battery. A standard hybrid battery is very small in size by now, so it wouldn't result in much loss in cu ft....a CNG tank, it all depends on psi and how much range you want.
What is interesting is to compare the loss in cargo area due the larger battery of going from HEV->PHEV. Then, compare if we simply would have been better off putting in a CNG tank whose volume roughly equals the [gasoline tank+ extra batteries] of a PHEV. Make it carbon fiber, and the incremental increase in cost should be LESS than the incremental increase in cost for the extra batteries involved in going HEV->PHEV. Oh, and also weighs far less.

Yep, we def talked about this one in another thread. I'll try to look it up. In order to save money on cost, minimize size and make packaging easier, why not just go with a beach-ball size CNG tank, a perfect sphere with volume of 4 gallons? @ 3000 psi
would hold the equivalent energy of 1 gallon of gasoline......so about 30-50 miles for a hybrid. A perfect sphere is the strongest shape, so you could build it with the cheapest materials, no need for carbon fiber.

There you go, you do daily driving on CNG (after slow-filling up overnight with home compressor), and switch to gasoline (or methanol) for longer trips. The rest of the gasoline tank could wrap around the CNG sphere in a semi-cirle.....I call it the "planet Saturn" tank

Given that range-extenders change oil only once/year, it might make a lot of sense for a 10,000 psi carbon-fiber tank in a EREV. I'm sure they'll train people for the annual inspection.

There you go! We can see the from this that the annual fuel cost for the Civic Natural Gas -if it had a hybrid drivetrain- would be about less than $700, as you said, less than the PiP.
If one wonders about conspiracies to keep NG away from the American consumer, one must ask why the U.S. has the world's cheapest NG, but the largest fleet of NG cars is in Iran, Pakistan, India, Italy, Brazil, Argentina? The NG Prius you linked to is from Spain......what do you think would happen if someone brought such a car to the USA...what would Big Auto and Big Oil do? I'm seriously starting to think we need a "Tesla type" company for NG vehicles since it appears the entrenched interests have no interest in serious alternatives (which FC is NOT), and Musk realized this, hence building his own infrastructure and superior products

Well, I'll try to jump to some conclusions! See this:
Compare Side-by-Side
It says that the Hybrid Accord ranges from $29,155 to $34,905. The PHEV is $39,780. Yes, the PHEV is eligible for $3,000 or so in federal tax credits, but I'll leave those aside since they are temporary.
thus, the PHEV has a price premium of $4,875 - $10,625 as compared to the HEV.

How big a carbon fiber tank would we need?

The HEV has a 15.8 gallon tank
the PHEV has a 12.2 gallon tank
thus, we can conclude that 3.6 gallons of space was lost due to the extra batteries

So:

If we wanted to make this a straight CNG Hybrid, we'd be able to accommodate a 16-gallon carbon fiber tank. Would that cost $4,875 - $10,625? Doubt it.
At 10,000 psi, you'd get over 12 gallons of gasoline equivalent, or 540 miles range.
If we wanted to use cheap old steel tanks @ 3,000 psi, this would hold 4 gallons of gasoline equivalent - good for 180 miles, a very decent commuter car given that you don't need to go to a gas station every 180 miles, but rather fill up at home, so public CNG is rarely needed. And when it is, expect fast fills-5-10 min

If we wanted to make this a dual-fuel CNG/gasoline hybrid, then we can still accommodate a 16 gallon tank, but 4 gallons would hold CNG, and the remaining 12 gallons (or 540 miles) would hold gasoline. That 4 gallon CNG tank, if we use a cheap metal sphere like I suggested, would hold the energy equivalent of 1 gallon gasoline, good for 45-50 miles.
There you go, daily slow-fill overnight @ home, then 45-50 miles the next day on CNG.....when it runs out, or you go on a longer trip, the car seemlessly switches to gasoline. And, you still get the idle-stop and regen braking of a hybrid.

Such a car would be INFINITELY superior to a FCV.

But it has to be made at a dedicated facility, you can rule out at-home refueling.
I like and support methanol, though, since it's cheap to retrofit older cars.

We're talking CNG, not LNG. Again, you can't fill up with methanol in your garage, but you can with CNG

 

A thought experiment:

- Take the battery out of the Chevy Volt.......it has a volume of about 17 gallons
- Leave behind only enough batteries for regen braking and idle stop
- Replace said battery with a 17 gallon, 10,000 psi carbon-fiber tank full of NG

This is roughly equal to 13 gallons gasoline, good for 390-520 miles @ 30-40mpg

Such a 'CNG Volt' would:

- Weigh less than the current Volt
- Cost less than the current Volt
- Re-fuel faster than the current Volt
- Have greater driving range than the current Volt, gasoline included
- Have lower emissions than grid-charged Volts in MOST parts of the country
- Not use foreign oil......EVER

A PiP would do even better.
what am I missing compared to FCVs?
Care to help me out, Toyota?

 

Germany discussion:

Fuel-cell vehicles could also be a boon to renewable energy by helping to address their intermittency. One option being considered in Germany is to use excess wind power generated at night, when demand is low, to electrolyze water, making hydrogen (see “Hydrogen Could Be Key to Germany’s Energy Plans”). Sperling says using hydrogen as a way to store excess renewable energy makes sense. He also notes that there are other promising routes to low-carbon hydrogen production in development, such as engineering plants to produce hydrogen from sunlight directly, although those are in early stages of development.

 

Toyota's "phoenix"? = ...Der HINDENBERG rises from the ashes...

 

It sure will be interesting to see if any FCV fires/explosions receive the same level of scrutiny & media attention/hysteria as the Model S fires, which IMHO, were out of proportion.

 

What's this button do?

 

This what happens when a Tesla Model S hits a FCV head on at 70 MPH

 

Read the 'Summary and Conclusions' first, then go back and read from the beginning:

 

I just saw a Lexus ad on youtube where they say

"Electric cars hold you back" (image of Leaf with 4 hour recharge time) "Lexus hybrids do not."

So much for the apology.... Toyota is continuing its same anti-EV behavior.